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Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

robkhenderson.substack.com

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Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#321

Post by onetimeusename »

cma wrote: post #185
whack wrote: post #120

The following paragraphs were especially powerful: > The chattering class is using poor kids as pawns to eliminate standardized testing. Which helps their own kids. Rich kids who “don’t test well.” But they know how to strategically boost their GPAs, get recommendation letters from important people, stack their resumes with extracurriculars, and use the right slogans in their admissions essays. They have “polish.” >…

> Standardized test scores are the hardest metric to game Learning disabilities give unlimited time on the tests. That means you can slowly use brute force on the math section to check each alternative one by one instead of needing to be good at other techniques. Harvard had something like 25% of admitted students do this. Does it sound plausible that 25% of Harvard students need unlimited time on the test due to a l…

I am glad someone pointed this out. I don't know the percentage but a lot of students game their GPA in school too. From pushing professors to give group assignments to using mental health days to claiming to have learning disabilities, these are all tools they have including cheating. Professors don't usually change their homework assignments every time they offer a course and online sites sell the answers. Professors know but they can't risk giving students below an A-. It causes a shit storm.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#322

Post by rayiner »

nervousvarun wrote: post #122
ryzvonusef wrote: post #45

As an Asian person, I think it's a cultural thing. There is this old joke about how even if you are a one-in-a-million person, there are still 8000 of "you"s to choose from; how does one chose who to pick, if there aren't positions for all of them? So how do you make it "fair"? Since of the number of seats are limited, so imagine if the cut-off for the last seat is for someone who is in the 90.3765335th percentile, l…

You've articulated this very well. It's something I also have for years believed as a non-Asian person that has become a "conceptual framework" (my words...probably inadequate) to better understand Asian co-workers now and co-students back in my school days (to unfortunately generalize here). For me at least it really does explain a lot of the cultural differences that lead to lazy western stereotypes. So many exampl…

That's part of it, but as an Asian American immigrant myself, the stereotypes aren't really far off. "Tiger parents" is an American characterization of how Asian families are generally structured: parents (who have knowledge and life experience) dictate to kids (who lack both). Dating and relationships are discouraged (freeing up huge bandwidth for studying) while marriage is expected (heading off the tendency for extended adolescence). "Hard working" is a byproduct of being not that far removed from subsistence agriculture. "Finding yourself" is discouraged. "Carrying out your role" is encouraged.

These are cultural adaptations to an environment that's very different from America. My dad grew up in a Bangladeshi village, where people who didn't work literally didn't eat, and the vocational choices for 99% of people were "subsistence farmer." I don't think the words "fair" or "unfair" were ever uttered in my house. (And it drives me nuts when my American-born kids say that.) In America, these cultural traits become positively adaptive, because most of the competition isn't trying as hard. It boggles my mind how many Americans don't study for the SATs, but do have iPhones.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#323

Post by Glyptodon »

htag wrote: post #273
faeriechangling wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The system of accommodating learning disabilities is a grift, I had a few while always being a strong tester who tended to finish tests early. The “accommodation” I always got was extra time which was extremely baffling. Extra time in particular was given out like candy for no reason. Harvard students having learning disabilities that warrant extra time on tests is a fucking joke, how delusional must one be to think…

Learning disabilities are a type of neurodevelopmental disorder in which a student that is of otherwise average of above average intelligence struggle with a specific type of material, commonly reading (dyslexia) or basic math (dyscalculia). The most effective treatment is early remediation, in which students in primary education are identified and given extra lessons and exercises on their weakness to help make them…

Hi anxiety higher status parents (professors, doctors, etc.) with kids who aren't Einstein go doctor shopping and waste district time constantly to get their kids testing advantages even though their kids are often totally typical kids with 110ish IQs. Special Ed at the local district is sick of them because it wastes so much time and money and takes away resources from the kids who actually need. (Though many of these parents do cause their kids to develop actual real anxiety disorders...)

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#325

Post by s1artibartfast »

Glyptodon wrote: post #317
s1artibartfast wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The core problem is that merit-based entrance is inherently at odds with equality of outcome. Families that are better off rais more capable children on average

I think they raise children who are more effectively socialized and protected more so than more capable. I've known very capable people who don't have the status to refuse to kiss rings and they always get screwed in public schools. The kids with sufficiently "decent" parents get handled with kid gloves and rule adherence, everyone else gets punched down with half-assery even when if they're experiencing injustice an…

I'm not sure I follow everything you wrote. Are you saying that poverty produces children and individuals more capable of driving and succeeding in society?

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#326

Post by HDThoreaun »

chaostheory wrote: post #191
whack wrote: post #120

The following paragraphs were especially powerful: > The chattering class is using poor kids as pawns to eliminate standardized testing. Which helps their own kids. Rich kids who “don’t test well.” But they know how to strategically boost their GPAs, get recommendation letters from important people, stack their resumes with extracurriculars, and use the right slogans in their admissions essays. They have “polish.” >…

If you ban legacy, then you lose needed donations. If you lose donations, then costs go up for everyone else. There is a net benefit for everyone when there are academically challenged wealthy children. Just keep standardized testing to prevent mass arbitrary admissions that will inevitably become racist. https://priceonomics.com/do-elite-colleges-discriminate-agai... It’s happened in the past to Jewish people and it…

This is not the reason ivy's have legacy. They have legacy students because that's what makes them the most prestigious universities in the world. Legacy students will succeed no matter what due to their connections. They will become rich and powerful, and networking with the rich and powerful is the main value add that ivy's are providing. Without legacy admits ivy's would be no different from Berkeley or ucla.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#327

Post by Kon-Peki »

rayiner wrote: post #208
whack wrote: post #120

The following paragraphs were especially powerful: > The chattering class is using poor kids as pawns to eliminate standardized testing. Which helps their own kids. Rich kids who “don’t test well.” But they know how to strategically boost their GPAs, get recommendation letters from important people, stack their resumes with extracurriculars, and use the right slogans in their admissions essays. They have “polish.” >…

I'm experiencing this first hand. My family immigrated here from Bangladesh. Unlike much of my family, my dad had a college-degree required job lined up, and we ended up pretty comfortable with him on a GS-scale job and my mom selling furniture. Thanks to the SATs, my brother and I both ended up breaking into industries (banking, law) that until relatively recently were good old boy's clubs. Now that I have kids at i…

> But if I was a recent immigrant, or a lower middle class kid in Iowa, I'd be pretty outraged about this.

It may be worth mentioning that one of the, if not the, most powerful IP lawyers in the Bay Area is “only” a University of Iowa Law School grad.

https://www.quinnemanuel.com/attorneys/verhoeven-charles-k/#...

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#328

Post by Animats »

Columbia University. Figures.

Yeonmi Park's "While Time Remains" has a biting critique of Columbia University's "wokeness".[1] Park escaped from North Korea to China as a child. In China, she was an illegal alien, and if caught would be deported back to North Korea and executed, so she and her mother were kept as slaves. She managed to escape China and get to the US. So she knows about oppression.

She ended up as a student at Columbia University. "What a load of crap" she writes. "The difference between a passing grade and a failing one lay in a refusal to criticize the usual targets (capitalism, Western civilization, white supremacy, systemic racism, oppression of minorities, colonialism, etc.) Worse than a bad grade was to be labelled by one's classmates as a 'SIX HIRB', a sexist, intolerant, xenophobic, homophobic, Islamaphobic, racist bigot."

[1] https://www.amazon.com/While-Time-Remains-Defectors-Freedom/...

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#329

Post by Hermitian909 »

zenta wrote: post #309
rayiner wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prepping for the test is a valuable signal when you're talking about the entire pool of high school students. And it does not gate opportunities by economics as much as you'd think: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/25/magazine/asian-test-prep-... . Immigrant families eligible for reduced price lunch are able to scrounge up the money for these tests.

It's not though. Give ten kids from the same class a self study online course and give another ten a private tutor, and they won't see the same score distribution. Where's the signal there? SAT results don't have a line item that notes the amount of wealth or privilege that went into preparing. > Immigrant families eligible for reduced price lunch are able to scrounge up the money for these tests. Some families can't…

I'm a former educator and tutor.

The effects of studying "for the test" as you put have been measured, improved test taking skills tends to be worth ~30 points which is not that significant. This matches my anecdotal experience and that of people I know who run SAT prep courses.

It's far more effective to actually teach students the material, either by teaching them new concepts or by firming up their understanding to ones they've already been exposed to. Particularly in Math, many students in high school have shaky understandings of fractions or algebra. Firming up these foundations can often lead to >100 point increase (given sufficient lead time). Those foundations are something the test is actually looking for since numeracy and strong algebra skills are a strong predictor of success in Calculus.

It's true that tutoring grants unfair advantages but this is going to be true in any system that uses skills as part of a selection criteria.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#330

Post by nick__m »

guiambros wrote: post #293
nick__m wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elite institutions like MIT, Yale, Stanford, Princeton and Harvard do not need more donations. Look at the worth of theirs endowment funds at the end of 2021 : Harvard 53G$ Yale 42G$ Stanford 37.8G$ Princeton 37G$ MIT 27.4G$ Can you honestly tell me that they need more donations ?

What is G$?

1G$ = 1 000 000 000$
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