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Piracy - You can't have your cake and eat it

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Re: Piracy - You can't have your cake and eat it

#321
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it have been a better outcome if the same number of people had paid for the game and only 10% as many people got to play? It wouldn't have been better for the game-makers and it would have been far worse for the population.

The fundamental argument for anti-piracy is that at least some of the pirates would have paid for the content if piracy was not available. It's not all the pirates, and it's not none of the pirates. Nobody would care about pirates if they were 100% unmonetizable. I'm making numbers up, but let's say 10% paid as usual, 1% converted to payment because piracy wasn't available, and 89% didn't want to pay and didn't play.…

I've seen the most data from individual authors. Every report/experiment I have seen had the author making more money off books that were available for free.

Re: Piracy - You can't have your cake and eat it

#322
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree on ethics. No one can prove right or wrong, so it has limited charm. I think though, that most would understand that beyond ethics, piracy is directly compromising the agreement that the producer sets out- similar to lying or stealing in that it's not admirable behavior, regardless of how many Johnny Depp posters you have put up (like one of the pro-piracy blogs that was posted earlier.) Don't get me wrong, I…

Okay, so the problem that I'm seeing is that in your mind, you are equating a pirated copy with a lost sale. But that's an outdated and incorrect assumption, and hopefully one that time will deal with (when we've all grown up with infinite copies available from birth). A pirated copy is definitely not the same as a lost sale. Plenty of people payed for and touted Minecraft, obviously. A huge category of people didn't…

I wouldn't equate a pirated copy with a lost sale, but that is an approach that the businesses behind SOPA/PIPA are doing and they are pursuing censorship as an end result. Whatever a pirate may say or intend, they are supporting their opponents argument for censorship in the form of, "lost sales."

Censorship is as morally baseless as piracy, but I do not like it either, and like piracy it has a negative effect on everyone.

Maybe sales would increase if something prevented piracy, maybe they wouldn't. I expect that they would increase a significant percentage, but probably not even close to 100%.

People everywhere act out of self interest all the time, not just some of the time, all the time. It's just that for some people self interest involves having the perception to see beyond the immediate benefit of an act. Others do not, and eat donuts until they have diabetes, sleep with their best friend's spouse, steal cars, and act on each impulse as soon as it arises.

That people act in ways that are short sighted and then try to explain away their shortsightedness is only human, but it's not admirable, and it does no public service.

I have nothing against anyone saying, "I breach the contract between provider and consumer. I'm a leech off of others labor. I inhibit growth that would otherwise occur. I take and give nothing back and then lie and say I would do otherwise if only X business did Y. I will only act fairly when forced to by a parent figure, which will probably be the government if I can get others to take on this attitude."

The same as I would have no problem with someone saying, "I'm a habitual liar and a cheat," versus someone saying, "I help people to be more careful and to investigate what it is told to them. I help people to be more cautious. I'm a Highwayman, a Bandit!"

I have long addressed the question of whether I'm going to live my life righting every wrong and looking for people to save. That I do not save kids in Africa, does not mean I haven't considered it. I live my life with integrity to what I value and I don't have to make elaborate arguments as to why, I just do the part that is mine.

The reason I'm shocked that Minecraft was pirated as you say, is that I see "pirates" complain that they would buy this product if it didn't have DRM or that product if the cost was reasonable. Here we have a project in its early stages that is valuable and made easy to attain. Will they support it. Will they help make it better? No, the lousy excuse is now exposure. And then, "Why isn't this thing finished yet!?" Ha, ha.

Re: Piracy - You can't have your cake and eat it

#323
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair point — I was being a bit facetious — but the fact remains that if a critical enough mass of people steal/copy Windows, it’s no longer economically viable. Every user who hasn’t paid for it is being subsidized by those who have. Windows may not be the best example since it’s so massively profitable, and sells a lot to enterprise customers and OEMs who won’t pirate it. That said, I suspect the business case for p…

So MS would announce that it is no longer making Windows, and companies would then have to decide whether they want to stay in business by moving to another OS or not. I'm sorry, but I think there is a STRONG argument that if something can be obtained easily for free, or worse can be obtained MORE easily for free, then trying to defend the model by making free illegal is much like trying to make people pay a wave tax…

"Wave tax"... not bad. I've been trying to work out an analogy myself, flush-right law. Imagine it, we could set up a paradigm in which the plumber who installs a toilet includes a little gadget that makes sure you don't flush a toilet without buying a flush-right from him by authorizing a little payment. Call the technology a Effluent Rights Management (ERM) system. It would need to be complemented, of course, with some legislation making it illegal to circumvent ERM, etc, etc, wouldn't want flush thieves simply taking the devices off their toilets.

And there it is, an artificial market created through technology and legislation, just like the copyright market. I'm sure plumbers would be eager to point out the virtues of having such a system.

Re: Piracy - You can't have your cake and eat it

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft does benefit, greatly, from piracy of Windows. Gates has said so himself: http://www.itwire.com/it-industry-news/market/23137-how-pira... Gates has also, in the past, confirmed how important piracy is to Microsoft: "Although about 3 million computers get sold every year in China, but people don't pay for the software... Someday they will, though. As long as they are going to steal it, we want them to steal…

I'm convinced Photoshop is intentionally easy to pirate. They make money from business customers, and everyone willing to pay, and because it's essentially free for people unwilling to pay, there isn't much room for a competitor.

Look at Craigslist for another example.

All listings are free. With the exception of job postings and agent housing ads in NYC. The exceptions provide enough revenue for the small (~40) staff of CL to keep things rolling. The free postings zero out revenues for anyone else looking to compete in the same space, establishing a large marketplace with strong network effects and an effective monopoly.

Re: Piracy - You can't have your cake and eat it

#325
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ability for 1/2 the people on the planet to distribute content without meaningful cost barriers is vary new. It's caused people to create and publish far more interesting content in a single day than you can consume in a single day. We are transiting through a tipping point where locating and filtering content is becoming more valuable than creating it. Consider, on average do you enjoy reading HN posts? In what…

Have you been to a bookstore recently? I think you need to look up the printing press and it's relation to the copyright law debate. The internet (on that front) is not as new and amazing as you think. btw 1/2 the people on the planet are not on the internet it's actually more like 1/3, and of that a smaller subset 'create content'.

Printing enough books so that 10 million people can read what you created costs ~1/2 a million dollars. Hosting a torrent with that same content costs anyone with a regular internet connection less than a cup of coffee from Starbucks.

PS: Many people use the internet without actually owning a computer. In this case language and cultural barriers are more important than internet access which says a lot about the world IMO.

Re: Piracy - You can't have your cake and eat it

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh wait, I just found ANOTHER error. Or at least another expression of the same big error. "In addition, from the very beginning, copyright was an individual author right that accrued to people, not companies." Assuming that you mean "from the beginning of printing" this is the EXACT opposite of reality. In England, where the Statue of Anne was passed, the privilege to copy accrued to guilds, not individuals. Admitte…

Well you've obviously got a better working grasp of names and dates than I do, but I think you're mistaking precision for accuracy. The Statute of Anne vested the copy monopoly explicitly in the author. Prior to that, guild members had the exclusive "right" to "copy" a manuscript, yes--but first they had to individually purchase the license to do so, from the author. This is what I mean when I say that copyright (in…

"Well you've obviously got a better working grasp of names and dates than I do,"

Understatement of the week.

"but I think you're mistaking precision for accuracy."

Those are synonyms, making this a distinction without a difference. You either fail to grasp logic, or basic English. I'm not sure which. Regardless, neither of these words refer to your grasp of history, nor your ability to ground theory within it. I'm not "mistaking" anything for anything, as your concept is demonstrably devoid of both.

"This is what I mean when I say that copyright (in the modern, IP sense) ultimately accrued to the author. "

Stop lying. You meant no such thing and you know it. Indeed, you very clearly said the opposite. Specifically. "In addition, from the very beginning, copyright was an individual author right that accrued to people, not companies."

And again "copyright (in the modern, IP sense)" means the legal ability duplicate, distribute, and creative derivatives from. Those were activities that the guild system specifically BARRED authors from doing. To say their need to buy manuscripts means that, effectively, these privileges "accrue" to the author is not true. And about "buying licences"; there were no licences to buy. You just made that up.

Let's remember the whole point of your original argument; that copyright - as an individual right - has "always" been the authors, and that our legal tradition has recognized "since the very beginning of printing." As noted, this is completely counter to reality. And now you're saying this isn't really what you meant, but sort of is because of these imaginary "licences"? Aside from the guild's charters, there were no licences. Only physical ownership and control of the manuscripts themselves, which was exchanged for money on unfavorable terms from the only legal buyers in town. Yes, that was a crappy system. No, it didn't give authors their due. And it ended in 1709, which is about two and a half centuries after the advent of movable type. Moving on.

"There was not much time following Gutenberg when it was legal for printers to copy whatever the heck they wanted."

True, but that had everything to do with censorship by the Church, and not respect for the rights of authors. Indeed, those two interests have tended to be at sharp odds. See my point above about authors and rights and who could do what "at the very beginning".

"Recognition of authorship was a social norm that predated the printing press, and was very soon incorporated into the regulation of the new technology."

If a custom pertaining to simple credit is your example of early copyright (i.e. what prevailed for the first 260 years), then you simply have no idea what copyright even covers. Just...none.

Also, who are you to say "very soon" about anything? Haven't we already established that your grasp of actual history is a confused and distorted mess of near bottomless error? Given your hilariously awful track record, you have no business making assertions about specific timeframes without clear citations.

"To return to my (now demolished) broader point, try this thought experiment..."

I've got a better idea. Instead of acting like a person who is quite literally moronic, why don't you take a moment to realize that you have been completely and totally schooled. Everything, from your grasp of history, to your understanding of words, to the honesty of your arguments, to the clarity of your theoretical understanding has just been handed back to you in shit covered shreds, and now there is a smoking crater where your credibility used to be.

This is where the normal, decent, reasonably self-respecting human would think "Wow, I really put my foot in it. I actually have no idea about any of this stuff. The worst part is that I didn't even realize how clueless I was. And there I was, starting of my remarks to others with snide personal insults about who belongs "in the uninformed camp". Instead of continuing to behave like an idiot, I'm going to spend some time actually learning about all this, and then, perhaps, I can save myself some embarrassment, and maybe even answer my own questions."

Questions like "Why would a major paradigm change in the economics and distribution of a particular kind of technology upset the related body of law that developed over the course of three centuries under an entirely different paradigm?"

You'll be pleased to know that this is exactly what my original remark covered. Provided that you're clever enough to realize that you were under some very serious illusions when reading those remarks, and not understanding them at all as a result, try going back and reading them again, and see if you can figure out the answer to your own question.

If you can't, then study harder. You'll know that you've got a passable grasp of history, politics, economics, and publishing when the answer to your question about trends in the marginal costs of publication and the extent of authorial control appears to be the opposite of your present understanding, for reasons that should be self-evident.

Good luck.

Re: Piracy - You can't have your cake and eat it

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree. However I think we should include a third group in the pro-file sharing side: people who don't have the money to pay for content or just wont because they're cheap. The problem is that the anti-piracy side mostly sees this group instead of the other ones and that's why, imho, they claim that pirating is like stealing and that it causes the same damage.

If they don't have any money to pay, how is anyone losing any money when they download? This shouldn't hurt anyone in any way.

Of course if you have nothing you can buy nothing so the producer would get no harm, but this is rarely the case. I was a bit vague on this point but let me be more clear. "Don't have any money" doesn't mean having 0$ in your bank account, at least in this argument; it means that you are not willing to use the money you have to buy some things because in your opinion you have little money (compared to what you want to buy), so you decide to spend it for things you care about and can't get for free. Now, imagine a scenario where you can't get those things for free. In this scenario, you distribute your money differently in order to be able to buy the products you need. I can assure you there there are many people I know that have the money buy they tell me they don't have it to buy certain products, so they pirate it. They are being cheap. If they couldn't get those things for free they would pay for them. This kind of people cause harm to the producers. Talking about a real example: in my country (Italy) many people have breakfast at bars with 2-3 euros and nobody will question this price. At the same time these people don't want to pay for a 99 cents song that will entertain them for days. This is something wrong and I see why producers want to change this kind of behavior. The problem is they are "doing it wrong" by enforcing (or trying to enforce) laws that protect things that just can't be protected anymore.

Re: Piracy - You can't have your cake and eat it

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well you've obviously got a better working grasp of names and dates than I do, but I think you're mistaking precision for accuracy. The Statute of Anne vested the copy monopoly explicitly in the author. Prior to that, guild members had the exclusive "right" to "copy" a manuscript, yes--but first they had to individually purchase the license to do so, from the author. This is what I mean when I say that copyright (in…

"Well you've obviously got a better working grasp of names and dates than I do," Understatement of the week. "but I think you're mistaking precision for accuracy." Those are synonyms, making this a distinction without a difference. You either fail to grasp logic, or basic English. I'm not sure which. Regardless, neither of these words refer to your grasp of history, nor your ability to ground theory within it. I'm no…

I apologize in advance for the nitpick, but this is one of those things that just bugs me.

Accuracy and precision are not synonyms. Accuracy refers to how close you are to the true value. Precision refers to how narrow your claimed value is.

As applied to history, the statement that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor at 9:33:12AM Mountain Time on July 4th, 1953 is extremely precise, but horribly inaccurate. Meanwhile, the statement that the Japanese attacked Pearl harbor in 1941 is accurate, but not very precise.

Re: Piracy - You can't have your cake and eat it

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well you've obviously got a better working grasp of names and dates than I do, but I think you're mistaking precision for accuracy. The Statute of Anne vested the copy monopoly explicitly in the author. Prior to that, guild members had the exclusive "right" to "copy" a manuscript, yes--but first they had to individually purchase the license to do so, from the author. This is what I mean when I say that copyright (in…

"Well you've obviously got a better working grasp of names and dates than I do," Understatement of the week. "but I think you're mistaking precision for accuracy." Those are synonyms, making this a distinction without a difference. You either fail to grasp logic, or basic English. I'm not sure which. Regardless, neither of these words refer to your grasp of history, nor your ability to ground theory within it. I'm no…

[deleted]

Re: Piracy - You can't have your cake and eat it

#330
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so the problem that I'm seeing is that in your mind, you are equating a pirated copy with a lost sale. But that's an outdated and incorrect assumption, and hopefully one that time will deal with (when we've all grown up with infinite copies available from birth). A pirated copy is definitely not the same as a lost sale. Plenty of people payed for and touted Minecraft, obviously. A huge category of people didn't…

I wouldn't equate a pirated copy with a lost sale, but that is an approach that the businesses behind SOPA/PIPA are doing and they are pursuing censorship as an end result. Whatever a pirate may say or intend, they are supporting their opponents argument for censorship in the form of, "lost sales." Censorship is as morally baseless as piracy, but I do not like it either, and like piracy it has a negative effect on ev…

I don't disagree with your viewpoint, but I think there are more ways of looking at it. Taking a systemic view instead of focusing on the specific transaction in question - that is, look at the pirate, not the piracy - might shed some light on why I think that ultimately, piracy is not a destructive force:

There is research showing that pirates, on average, spend more money on the things they pirate than non-pirates. While this may sound counter-intuitive, on reflection it makes sense. There are those who pirate for the sake of pirating, lets call them hoarders. They download everything they can, with no intention to ever pay for any of it. These are not potential customers. The other category of pirates are people who, lets take music for example, who really love music. They spend a lot of money on music each month, but they also have an active network trading music with other enthusiasts. In fact, this trading network is what provides feedback and drives their interest in music to begin with. So the piracy, the downloading of music that they engage in, is the fuel that drives their consumption up beyond that of a regular, law-abiding consumer.

I'm not saying that this is the only truth, but the statistical evidence from several studies done on musical piracy (I recall one in particular done in Holland) supports this view.

So in this case, your characterisation of the pirate as a leech is not an accurate account. In fact, this pirate is the perfect customer, and it is the piracy that made him.

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