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New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

theautopian.com

321–330 of 714 posts

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#321
Now, as much as I wanna take the piss on Tesla, I'm more interested in this American tradition of simply ramming into anything in front of you that's not moving at your current speed or faster..

Like, how do people reason about this? It seems uniquely American to me.. These videos of people simply driving into stuff that's in plain sight right in their lane? What do they do if there's a fallen tree, tire, shopping cart? Simply pile into it instead of braking?

I'm wondering because, in my country, when you drive a car, you're supposed to pay attention to the road, and always be ready to break if something gets in your way ? But in USA, the thinking seems to be "I'm not driving too fast, I have the freedom of way here" ?

As for the article, all points are entirely valid! Systems need to either be fully autonomous, or require some level of constant engagement.. This is kind of analogous to the previous stuff written about the deskilling of labor and automation.. It's an impossible position to put someone in "this works in every easy case, almost never fails, and when it fail, it might get arbitrarily complex and require the exact skills that the operator has very rarely any opportunity to practice"

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I brake check someone on the highway, causing an accident, and it’s discovered that that’s what happened, I’d be pretty shocked* if the trailing driver was found responsible. That video looks like a combined lane change and brake check on the part of the Tesla. * and disappointed

Why would you be shocked and disappointed? It is the obligation of the driver trailing you to maintain enough distance to be able to stop safely if the car in front of them has to brake hard for whatever reason. The fact that your hard braking wasn't actually necessary may mean that you're also responsible, but it doesn't absolve the other driver.

[deleted]

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then, other than pedantry, is their a meaningful difference?

Yes, FSD is essentially a complete rewrite of Autopilot which will soon replace it for freeway driving too. Autopilot has been available for many years and FSD is new. This accident could have happened years ago and is not evidence of any issue with the new FSD stuff.

But since there's no behavioural difference, it doesn't matter if it's a complete rewrite or not.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#324
post #321

Now, as much as I wanna take the piss on Tesla, I'm more interested in this American tradition of simply ramming into anything in front of you that's not moving at your current speed or faster.. Like, how do people reason about this? It seems uniquely American to me.. These videos of people simply driving into stuff that's in plain sight right in their lane? What do they do if there's a fallen tree, tire, shopping ca…

Nearly everyone else in America (and probably Italy) is going to think this sentiment is insane, but you're right on here.

The way this comes about has to do with the suburban model. When you're in an environment where traffic is commonplace, you can drive defensively or aggressively. During traffic crunches, defensive drivers are completely walked all over by aggressive drivers, and will easily double their time sitting in traffic. Leaving a safe distance means leaving room for people to dangerously merge.

This leads to a nash equilibrium of aggressive driving, and now you literally have Americans criticizing the idea of "brake-checking" tailgater as a way of signaling their displeasure at being tailgated (literally just tapping the brakes to slow down).

It's a completely messed up system, and it terrifies me that it seems to be spreading to other countries.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Automatic switching between FSD and Autopilot is not any kind of UX problem. There is no reason the driver needs to be aware of it. The driver does not need to take any action at all. The only difference is the type of road. But which software was in use is relevant here because people are trying to blame this on FSD. Whenever you're on a freeway, Autopilot is used automatically instead of FSD, so FSD had nothing to…

> There is no reason the driver needs to be aware of it. If the person operating the vehicle doesn't need to be aware of the difference, then the general public shouldn't need to either when analyzing an accident. It seems baffling to me that we could imagine a scenario where it's less important for the driver of a vehicle to be aware of the difference, than it is for the public when reacting to a news article. I don…

The difference comes when drawing inferences about the future development of Autopilot/FSD as these articles invariably do. This is completely different than day-to-day usage of the system. If you believe this was a failure of FSD, then maybe it's evidence we should stop the rollout of FSD or whatever. If it's a failure of Autopilot, then it is not evidence about the future behavior of FSD at all. FSD is a complete rewrite of Autopilot and is planned to soon replace it entirely including for freeway driving.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#326

I have a VW Golf and it has what it calls "adaptive cruise control". What makes it different from my older (simple) cruise control is that it will slow down and speed up again as necessary without my intervention. For example, if I set the speed to 70 mph and it gets close to a car ahead that is only going 65 mph, it will slow down and maintain what the software believes is a safe distance. Similarly, if a car in an…

My friend was using adaptive cruise control while towing a caravan. A car merged in front of him, his car applied heavy braking to maintain the desired distance (not necessarily to avoid a crash) but didn't compensate for the weight of the caravan. Almost lost traction, lead to heavy swerving. He's vowed to never use it again.

The use of ACC while towing is explicitly discouraged by my car's manual. There are also a number of other considerations that should be taken into account. These systems are practical, but not magic and users should try to understand them well before using.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I brake check someone on the highway, causing an accident, and it’s discovered that that’s what happened, I’d be pretty shocked* if the trailing driver was found responsible. That video looks like a combined lane change and brake check on the part of the Tesla. * and disappointed

Lane change + braking is extremely scary. I rear-ended a woman who did that to me. When she cut in front of me in my lane there was not nearly enough distance between us for me to fully stop when she then suddenly braked. I'm not sure what I really was even supposed to even do in a situation like that — I suppose as soon as she cut over I should have just assumed the worst was coming and hit my brakes right away?

Yeah, in cases like this it is just physics. Propably not much you could have done. She cuy into the space between you and the car in front, the normal reaction is to lift the foot to increase distance again. If the new car hits the brakes, no chance to not rear end it...

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#328
post #321

Now, as much as I wanna take the piss on Tesla, I'm more interested in this American tradition of simply ramming into anything in front of you that's not moving at your current speed or faster.. Like, how do people reason about this? It seems uniquely American to me.. These videos of people simply driving into stuff that's in plain sight right in their lane? What do they do if there's a fallen tree, tire, shopping ca…

[deleted]

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#329
post #321

Now, as much as I wanna take the piss on Tesla, I'm more interested in this American tradition of simply ramming into anything in front of you that's not moving at your current speed or faster.. Like, how do people reason about this? It seems uniquely American to me.. These videos of people simply driving into stuff that's in plain sight right in their lane? What do they do if there's a fallen tree, tire, shopping ca…

Your take very exaggerated to say the least. Note that the Tesla was not part of the pile-up, the car behind it braked in time. But it takes only one driver to be a little too close to the car in front of them or to react a little too slowly and this is what happens, everywhere in the world.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#330
Everyone claiming that the autopilot is at fault for stopping suddenly get something very important very wrong: Stopping a car must be possible at all times. Any automation in a car should always be able to stop the car as the safe default. The same holds for human drivers, of course: Consider the possibility that the vehicle in front of the Tesla just lost some of its load. Of course the Tesla then has to stop suddenly. Considering this behaviour a safety problem is a lazy excuse. At worst, it is a nuisance.

As for the safety distance: This is a valid point. If the Tesla has not kept a safe distance to the following car when changing lanes, there is a problem with the automation. It should always be as defensive as possible. I don't see that from the police report, but the video shows the distance to be rather short, maybe two car lengths. Call it 10m. The second car doesn't really seem to brake very hard (no emergency braking assistant?) and that crash is definitely on the Tesla as it cut the distance, unless the speed limit in that tunnel would be around 20kph or so. But now it gets interesting: The third car does stop successfully. The big pileup happens afterwards.

In conclusion: The big pileup happens because the third car suddenly stops - and rightfully so but the following cars don't keep their distance to that third car. The Tesla getting rear ended is just a lazy excuse for these drivers that simply drive recklessly.

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