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How to sell tickets fairly

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Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#321

Post by 8note »

etothepii wrote: post #252
smachiz wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the variable "fixed" costs? And when are they incurred? This is about revenue maximization, not user enjoyment maximization or fairness maximization. Ultimately I don't think most artists actually want revenue maximization - they're probably far more interested in fairness maximization in ensuring their fan base of all economic strata get to see them live.

As in if I know I will make $1m in sales I might choose to use better audio equipment.

If you're selling out shows at double the price, wouldn't the next step be to reduce the sound quality so you can play cheaper shows with a higher profit?

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#322

Post by 8note »

wanderingbort wrote: post #179

I will start to sound like a broken record soon but blockchain has provided a wealth of information about “fair” distribution games and their downfalls. The NFT summer of 2021 saw first come first serve distros gamed by parties with superior network positioning. Dutch auctions (from the article) strongly favored the wealthy buyers not fans or parties who “pay” with other things of value like their time. Lotteries wer…

The block chain imposes limits that ticket sales don't have.

The cost of meat space sock puppets is much higher than coming up with a billion secret keys

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#323

Post by 8note »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #90
langsoul-com wrote: post #88

This isn't fair to those who can only afford standard priced tickets. It will maximise profits, but is not fair. Other platforms do waves, split across time zones. That would distribute the load to prevent crashes.

The current system isn't very fair to those people either. Professional scalpers act like high frequency trading firms (some HFTs are ticket scalpers), and employ tens of thousands of dollars worth of computer equipment to get those seats before the poor rubes who hoped for standard priced tickets. By contrast, an auction system actually levels the playing field by removing the technological advantage. They don't hav…

The technological advantage is meaningless though. Anyone wealthy enough can set up the same tech solution, so it's just as fair. The wealthiest get the tickets in both cases

The unfairness remains, in that who gets to go to the concert is decided by who can spend the most in going to it.

If fairness is what you care about, any auction system is irrelevant

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#324

Post by listenallyall »

blowski wrote: post #200
listenallyall wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Influencing the market" is just a way of introducing unenforcable or ineffective rules, or unintended consequences. You want to tax resale of tickets at above face value at 100%? Sure. Now enforce it. I mean, it's been illegal in many states for a while now anyway. Back in the day, before the web, anyone who wanted a ticket at face value could get one. You just had to wait in line. For a long time. And back then, pe…

So we can influence the market for travel, healthcare, education, military, environment, food, children’s toys, etc. But not for tickets to watch Taylor Swift?

The market for concert tickets currently starts out "influenced" by the fact that the face value (for popular acts) is well below the market-clearing price. And people hate this system, because it attracts resellers who naturally see an easy profit opportunity, these resellers aggressively obtain the majority of all tickets through a variety of back channels, leaving very few actually available to be purchased at the face value. And, because keeping face value below market-clearing price means there is more demand than supply, this system, for various reasons, led to a single company monopolizing the sale of tickets and charging massive, unavoidable fees, which people hate even more.

If we actually were letting tickets be un-influenced, they would be sold via some kind of auction or like an IPO.

The point is not that you can't influence the market, it's that the market is simply a natural phenomenon that will strongly resist every attempt at diminishing it with counter-effects that may be unpopular, unwanted, unfair and unintended.

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#325

Post by 8note »

dojomouse wrote: post #107
ljw1004 wrote: post #104

In what sense is this solution "fair"? What definition of fairness is being used? This seems like a solution where rich people get the good things and poor people don't. I wouldn't call that fair. In a democracy, everyone has an equal weight, an equal say, in the governance of the country. We often call that fair, or sometimes just. In capitalism, every dollar has an equal weight, an equal say in what gets produced o…

In the case of transferable concert tickets that’s already the ‘solution’. Even if someone ‘poor’ is lucky enough to beat the odds and buy a ticket under the current system at the initial offer price, they still have the same opportunity cost to weigh up - it’s just they’re deciding whether to resell their ticket and realise a gain, or go to the concert and forfeit the gain. This proposed system would be fairer in th…

What it doesn't include is the maximum an artist is willing to accept for a ticket

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#326

Post by chrisseaton »

Symbiote wrote: post #296
listenallyall wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Influencing the market" is just a way of introducing unenforcable or ineffective rules, or unintended consequences. You want to tax resale of tickets at above face value at 100%? Sure. Now enforce it. I mean, it's been illegal in many states for a while now anyway. Back in the day, before the web, anyone who wanted a ticket at face value could get one. You just had to wait in line. For a long time. And back then, pe…

In Denmark it's illegal to resell tickets above the original price. Occasionally you see "crate of beer 1000DKK comes with free Taylor Swift ticket" but it's rare.

> In Denmark it's illegal to resell tickets above the original price.

This is the foundation of the entire of retail and investment. Why should it be banned?

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#327

Post by iopq »

Jarwain wrote: post #111
iopq wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the system that I can resell my ticket I don't have a loss, in a system where it's by name I can't I believe it should be auctioned anyway, so that the people with the highest desire to go can put their money towards it. This is the most practical solution to the problem - the organizers get paid what the tickets are worth, anyone who wants to go knows how much the tickets will go for, scalpers become futures trad…

The problem here is when artists want their tickets to go to any fan, and not just fans who have a lot of disposable income.

Then why charge money? Just give them away for free

The thing is, artists would like to make more money

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#328

Post by iopq »

notyourwork wrote: post #113
iopq wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the system that I can resell my ticket I don't have a loss, in a system where it's by name I can't I believe it should be auctioned anyway, so that the people with the highest desire to go can put their money towards it. This is the most practical solution to the problem - the organizers get paid what the tickets are worth, anyone who wants to go knows how much the tickets will go for, scalpers become futures trad…

No ones buying your resold steak from the butcher. Life happens but that’s a minority use case. Not the example to design around.

But you can put it in the freezer for months, kind of breaks the analogy. A concert or convention is just those few days

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#329

Post by listenallyall »

blowski wrote: post #302
MichaelZuo wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that there always exists a market clearing price for everything, which can be modified temporarily via human action, but not forever.

If we can improve things during that timeframe, great (perhaps phrased better as “In the long run, we’re all dead anyway”). And by the time we reach the end of that timeframe, the context will be different.

"Improve" how? And for whom? You have 400,000 people wanting to see a Taylor Swift concert each night in a venue that seats 80,000 (or whatever the actual numbers are). Lots of fans are going to be disappointed, shut out, denied access under any plan you implement or any laws you pass. Further, denying market forces to dictate prices results in an economic loss to Ms. Swift. You can twist "the market" all you want but you can't make everyone happy.

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#330

Post by blowski »

listenallyall wrote: post #329
blowski wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we can improve things during that timeframe, great (perhaps phrased better as “In the long run, we’re all dead anyway”). And by the time we reach the end of that timeframe, the context will be different.

"Improve" how? And for whom? You have 400,000 people wanting to see a Taylor Swift concert each night in a venue that seats 80,000 (or whatever the actual numbers are). Lots of fans are going to be disappointed, shut out, denied access under any plan you implement or any laws you pass. Further, denying market forces to dictate prices results in an economic loss to Ms. Swift. You can twist "the market" all you want bu…

You sound like a pagan worshipper in Ancient Greece, commenting on the sacrifices we must make for the gods on Mount Olympus.

I’ll try to respond in the rigid language of the mythical Homo Economicus. If Taylor Swift could control the ticket booking process herself, she could choose which of those 400,000 fans got tickets, instead of being forced to accept those who make TicketMaster the most profits. She can go for maximum short-term financial gain for herself, or perhaps long-run profits, or even some kind of artistic consideration. This is why TicketMaster having control both over supply of venues (by virtue of its exclusivity contracts) and distribution is a problem that needs to be solved, to introduce elasticity into the market that can respond to demand.

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