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Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

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Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#321

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You might consider the other side that equal amount of animals get to be born every minute and live some lives. We usually don't consider a person being born a tragedy almost regardless of what life this person had.

Could we use this to justify factory farming humans, in that the agony and terror they experience is eclipsed by the good of them being bred into being rather than not existing at all? We would certainly have more humans being born in that case than now, is it a negative thing that we are not doing this?

We kind of do already when we romanticize life. Every human dies eventually, at equilibrium, humans die at about the rate they're born. How long the average human lives does not change that, it only changes the delay in population changes. The same is true of chickens or cows, they live shorter lives but they're born at the same rate they die. When they die has no effect on this, but whether they live is entirely dictated by their utility to human beings. So you wouldn't actually get more humans from this, just more turnover. On the same note, you wouldn't get less cows not doing it, just longer turnover, all else being the same. In actuality though, without the meat they'd be useless to us, so you would wind up with a culling and then less of them, this is not the case for humans.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#322

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I am an unrepentant meat eater, but your visualization was absolutely fantastic. I would add that (my maybe incorrect napkin math) shows that 5 Americans die per minute to give it scale. My understanding is also that we destroy an absolutely phenomenal amount of chicks in an entirely gruesome way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_culling I have trouble handling that.

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Or by choosing to source your meat from places that treat animals well. Local, humane farmers.

It's pricier, but it's much higher quality and skips the industrial treatment of animals.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#323
post #308

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You can just accept that meat is a human food. Animals die for it. The natural world involves animals eating other animals. If you have to kill male calves because you're on a dairy farm then you kill the male calves. It's really not that shocking.

Meat is human food. But industrialization of meat is much more morally grey. Working with a local farmer to buy pasture raised pigs free from gestation crates is totally different from the hog mills with tiny cages and concrete floors.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#324

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Humans are more important by far. This idea that a cow’s life is as precious as a human’s life is the worst type of misanthropic thought. There is a hierarchy and although we shouldn’t torture living things, giving them “1 bad day” is totally ethical when used to endure and pleasure. I admit we don’t live up to that standard necessarily, but we should strive for it. Ideally everyone that wants to is eating happy anim…

> Humans are more important by far. From the perspective of which species? Does might make right? For intra-human relationships as well? Could anything evil happen as a result of embracing this outlook?

> Could anything evil happen as a result of embracing this outlook?

Yes. If we demote the value of human beings to meet the value of other species, we open the door to the legitimacy of killing human beings. If we promote the value of other species, we have swathes of carnivores to arrest and put on trial.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#325
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can just accept that meat is a human food. Animals die for it. The natural world involves animals eating other animals. If you have to kill male calves because you're on a dairy farm then you kill the male calves. It's really not that shocking.

The natural world also involves species consuming their entire food supply and then going extinct. Or polluting their ecosystem until they are unable to survive. I would hope we are intelligent enough to avoid that. Meat eating is contributing to both.

Not the first. Sounds like we're not consuming our entire food supply, but rather generating more as we need it.

And there's a lot of other things besides cow farts contributing to global warming, which can have a much bigger effect for much less effort than making the world vegetarian.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#326
post #109

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I made a website to help visualize American meat consumption in terms of animals slaughtered per second. It’s pretty insane and I think does something to help communicate just how large such industrial operations truly are. https://zach.ws/meat/

I am an unrepentant meat eater, but your visualization was absolutely fantastic. I would add that (my maybe incorrect napkin math) shows that 5 Americans die per minute to give it scale. My understanding is also that we destroy an absolutely phenomenal amount of chicks in an entirely gruesome way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_culling I have trouble handling that.

Chick culling is certainly gruesome, but not so shocking to me. It terms of animal suffering, I have seen much worse, still not enough to stop me from eating meat though.

I've seen videos of these chick grinders, from fully live chick to ground meat, it takes something like 1/10 of a second, I am not even sure their brain have time to register what happens before there is no brain anymore. Culling also happens very early, maybe after a day or so after hatching, so early it could almost be called abortion. Considered what happens after that, if I were to reincarnate, I would rather be one of these culled chicks than one that survives...

I think that focus on culled chicks is more because it looks ugly than real concerns about animal welfare.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#327

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Wow! Probably similar numbers for concrete. It's exponential growth. The thing about exponential growth is it can't continue for too long. As observers of Moore's Law will understand, eventually you run out of resources or into other physical limits. However, I'm quite confident that we can keep innovating and growth will continue in one form or another. I don't think Elon Musk is correct that human population will c…

>the law of life A pet tinfoil hat theory of mine is that most organisms ought to have some built in fail safe mechanism that causes populations to regulate themselves before a catastrophic overpopulation collapse. Because if it didn't have it it would be more likely to die out, so there should be a strong evolutionary pressure towards getting it. So maybe the population growth stagnation we're seeing is due to us se…

Well, there is a mechanism that largely prevents this, but it isn't genetic.

Say you're a rabbit, and you have a bunch of rabbit babies, and they eat all the grass and leave less grass growing. Their babies will die young and the population will stabilize around necessary resource availability.

What happens is increasing infant mortality and starvation. The interesting thing is, you never actually get to a global state of overpopulation, you get osculating population numbers between generations that are very stable.

The stabilization of human population now is the same phenomenon, but also has to do with technological advancement. As standard of living rises for a population, they become accustomed to abundance. This abundance is different from times past, in the past the more children you had the more labor you had so the more abundance you had. This created more pressure to reproduce than to reduce the number of mouths you need to feed. Since resource availability is becoming decoupled from availability of human labor the opposite incentive now dominates, and people naturally reduce reproduction to maintain personal comfort. This has the emergent, not deliberate effect of doing the same for the larger population.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#328

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nitpick: People confuse simple and easy. Losing weight is simple (don't put food in your mouth), but anyone who's obese can tell you it is not very easy to eat less. Likewise eating vegetarian is simple but to many, not easy.

I found it very, very easy.

Giving up cheese would be hard.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#329

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I fail to see the connection between raising prices and better affordability/access of food for the poor. Certainly you could make food as valuable as, say gold, and most would be loath to waste a single gram of it.

If they're throwing out 40% of the food they buy, then raising prices slightly and not throwing out 40% of the food should be accessibility-neutral no? Instead of buying 2 milks and throwing 1 milk out, you buy 1 milk for 2X the price and throw out 0 milk. At the end of the day you still drank 1 milk for the same effective price. They already have significantly more than they need. Americans already pay less as a per…

> At the end of the day you still drank 1 milk for the same effective price.

Why don't then people just buy 1 milk today at today price instead of buying 2 and throwing one away? They'd still have drunk 1 milk, but for half effective price. Why aren't people already doing that?

People often make fun of economists with their very specific mathematical models of perfectly round customers, production functions, etc. They often have a point. It is important to not forget, however, that the popular understanding of economics is even worse, and your comment is a great example of that.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#330
Why not just measure total mammal biomass? Humans are part of ecosystem, just like any other species and we have allowed many animals to flourish on unprecedented scale. Just look at all the new feline and canine diversity, or novel genomes like glofish.

Obviously, we want to preserve pre-existing biodiversity as much as we can, at the very for our own sake and for future generations to have all the tangible and intangible benefits of these species. But I wouldn't say that human-symbiotic species are inferior or that relative biomass has to have a particular ratio.

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