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Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

blogs.windows.com

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Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#321

Post by [deleted] »

MBCook wrote: post #301
pge wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what's the incentive for a chip manufacturer to put out a better ARM chip (eg comparable to the Apple M1)? I don't know that world well, so my best guess is that the margins go to the OS manufacturers, so unless you have guaranteed commitment from MSFT for a given volume, and some sharing of the margin, it's too risky to invest in the R&D to make a better ARM chip. The market for x86 chips is large and known, so for…

> what's the incentive for a chip manufacturer to put out a better ARM chip (eg comparable to the Apple M1)? Intel & AMD’s consumer and/or server market share. I can’t imagine going back to an Intel after an M1. The battery life is better. It’s dead silent. It doesn’t get warm. It’s like a totally different kind of object. I know PC people (those who want Windows) aren’t interested in an M1 Mac. That’s fine. But I se…

[deleted]

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#322

Post by karmelapple »

MBCook wrote: post #309
Nican wrote: post #260

Jeff Atwood 5 years ago: "the Qualcomm hardware people told Google internally they were 5 years behind Apple on hardware. This was about 1.5 years ago, but I believe that's about right." ( https://twitter.com/codinghorror/status/1050538041796788225 ) And benchmarks continue to show: https://twitter.com/slightlylate/status/1584350796233117696

Someone had a battery life test for phones. The iPhones beat the android phones in nearly every test by hours. And they only had 60-70% of the raw battery capacity. And you know they have faster processors too. It’s so weird to me. The A series is kind of “that doesn’t count” because the competition can’t get close. The M series wowed people and then we all went back to normal AMD/Intel stuff like nothing happened. I…

Who went back to AMD/Intel stuff? Any Apple user is far away from that, and comparing the performance, heat, noise, and battery differences between my Intel and Apple Silicon computers, I have no desire to regularly use an Intel machine until they make some stratospheric leap.

(I still need it for some x86 vagrant boxes I have though!)

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#323

Post by anaisbetts »

chinabot wrote: post #170
awill wrote: post #78

The difference here is that the M1 in the M1 mac mini is faster than Apple's phone SoC (the A16). The Qualcomm 8cx gen 3 (what a terrible name) in this machine is NOT faster than even Qualcomm's phone SoC (the 8 gen 1), let alone Apple's phone SoC. It's absurd to be selling a desktop PC that's weaker than a phone.

Prefer 32GB than a better CPU. By the way When the fuck did 32GB become an entry requirement, I am so saddened by the crappy software and stacks that treats memory like an infinite resource

The only dev environment that I know of where 32GB is an entry requirement is Professional (i.e. non-trivial, non-hobby/learner) Android development. You certainly do not need it to develop Windows applications.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#324

Post by dblooman »

bitL wrote: post #86

Maybe I am missing the point, but why wouldn't you rather buy a NUC instead of this slow box? I get it MS wants to be like Apple, meticulously copying anything that pops up there, but their brand is associated with different "experiences" and their main value lies in backwards compatibility and open hardware ecosystem.

meticulously? What is it that Microsoft has really copied in the last five years?

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#325

Post by MBCook »

eric-hu wrote: post #313
MBCook wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what's the incentive for a chip manufacturer to put out a better ARM chip (eg comparable to the Apple M1)? Intel & AMD’s consumer and/or server market share. I can’t imagine going back to an Intel after an M1. The battery life is better. It’s dead silent. It doesn’t get warm. It’s like a totally different kind of object. I know PC people (those who want Windows) aren’t interested in an M1 Mac. That’s fine. But I se…

Proving your point, Amazon designed graviton, an ARM processor for their data centers.

Data centers know power/heat is everything. I’m not surprised they’re leading the way.

But as a consumer you’re stuck. You should have a machine with the performance of any normal/good laptop with way better thermals and battery life.

I’m not sure what the Uber-high end laptop would look like but surely it would do better than today.

The scale needs adjusting. What counts as “too hot”, “too short battery life”, “minimum performance.”

It all should have changed. But it didn’t. The industry acts like Macs are magic and therefor incomparable. “Of course that Boeing goes faster, it’s a jet engine plane. You can’t compare that to our cars.”

They’re both computers. It can be done. So why are Intel/AMD/Qualcomm getting off the hook to such a degree?

I just don’t understand it. It’s almost like Stockholm Syndrome or something. “Intel is nice to us, who are we to complain?”

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#327

Post by no_time »

chocolatkey wrote: post #121

The most interesting part to me was the quote from Denuvo, presumably testing out pluton: “The Volterra devices are neat and powerful, ideal for us to test our market-leading anti-piracy and anti-cheat game security technologies. They’re also very quiet, and they just work out of the box.” – Reinhard Blaukovitsch, Managing Director of Denuvo by Irdeto

I wonder how many years until every DRM vendor can enforce pluton as a baseline. 5 more?

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#328

Post by wmf »

1123581321 wrote: post #310
awill wrote: post #78

The difference here is that the M1 in the M1 mac mini is faster than Apple's phone SoC (the A16). The Qualcomm 8cx gen 3 (what a terrible name) in this machine is NOT faster than even Qualcomm's phone SoC (the 8 gen 1), let alone Apple's phone SoC. It's absurd to be selling a desktop PC that's weaker than a phone.

The Apple dev kit was about two thirds the speed of an Intel Mac Mini. Microsoft or Qualcomm hasn’t shown us what their production PC Arm chip will look like.

Production ARM Surfaces have been out for a while; they have lower specs than this dev kit.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#329

Post by [deleted] »

GeekyBear wrote: post #220
wmf wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution to chicken-or-egg problems is known: you spend money to just overpower the problem. But MS and Qualcomm aren't doing that; they're half-assing their ARM hardware to save a little money.

Yup. Compare this to Apple's $499 ARM Dev test kit that you could return for a $200 credit. If Microsoft is serious about ARM, they need a very low barrier of entry for those willing to port their software.

[deleted]

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#330

Post by pdntspa »

Sakos wrote: post #91
awill wrote: post #78

The difference here is that the M1 in the M1 mac mini is faster than Apple's phone SoC (the A16). The Qualcomm 8cx gen 3 (what a terrible name) in this machine is NOT faster than even Qualcomm's phone SoC (the 8 gen 1), let alone Apple's phone SoC. It's absurd to be selling a desktop PC that's weaker than a phone.

It's a chicken or the egg dilemma. Non-Apple ARM is too slow, so nobody wants Windows ARM, and nobody wants Windows ARM, so nobody is seriously working on consumer-targeted ARM. It will probably fail because Microsoft is generally bad at managing and marketing their hardware projects and coordinating with manufacturers and retail partners. Also, yeah, the pricing and performance is abysmal. But there is some sense to…

> . But there is some sense to trying to lay the groundwork for future ARM SoCs running Windows.

They've been doing exactly that since Windows 8, if not earlier. Perhaps the Year of Windows on ARM is somewhere around the corner from the Year of the Linux Desktop

I think we are on the ... third? ... attention cycle for this? Because they were trying pretty hard when W10 dropped too

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