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Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

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Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#321

Post by Sharlin »

newsclues wrote: post #313
Sharlin wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Peoples' homes not getting electricity will be the last resort and unlikely as large industries will be asked first to stop producing and take the government money. Interesting. Here in Finland the plan is to target domestic use first if the push comes to shove, to keep the industry up and running.

Does Switzerland border Russia or another country that may invade if industrial production shuts down?

Russia is in no shape to attack anybody right now. And industrial production doesn’t really have anything to do with any hypothetical acts of war. The fact is simply that the industry is vital to keeping the economy running, while rolling blackouts in homes are in the end merely an inconvenience.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#322

Post by sschueller »

nix23 wrote: post #221
nairboon wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't? I didn't realized that we've moved...

You can thank CERN for that and the mirror-black-hole they created ;)

I guess we are the hole in the "Swiss Cheese" or for non-Americans; Emmentaler that is Europe.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#323

Post by toast0 »

kennend3 wrote: post #307
derefr wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems you agree that 'essential' loads have much more value to you and others, but you're not willing to pay the value? In a similar sense that I'm not willing to pay more for "essential" food than for luxury food; or in the same sense that it seems unfair to have to pay for life-saving medical treatments. It is both unethical and pointless to exploit inelastic demand — the whole meaning of the word "inelastic"…

> It is both unethical and pointless to exploit inelastic demand WELL PUT.. the logic on this debate is astonishly bad.. "Charge more for essential services" just sounds terrible and you are correct, inelastic demand needs to be affordable, and subsidized if it is NOT affordable. i dont understand how someone would advocate that "essential services has higher value to me and should cost more". Essential services like…

If I lived in -24C, it would be extremely valuable for me to have heat.

As it is, I live in a climate that does dip below 0C from time to time, and having access to heat is important, so I have a backup generator for the house, and another for the well, because water is important too. When I use them, just the energy cost is much higher than utility power, so I don't use them when utility power is available. There's capital cost and operational costs to pay too. Many people who live around me don't have generators, so they have to hope outages won't be too long, or that they can make it to a warming center --- but outages are often coincident with locally heavy snowfall and our roads are always steep, so that makes it difficult to travel even short distances to get to warmth.

In my area, the issue isn't rolling blackouts, it's usually lines broken due to falling trees. Paying more for uninterupted utilities wouldn't fix that, but if it were rolling blackouts, I would certainly prefer to pay more for utility power for essential loads rather than paying more for local generation for essential loads.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#324

Post by hi_herbert »

distances wrote: post #198
origin_path wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Multiple gas pipelines from Russia are closed because European governments refuse to allow them to run. That's gas sanctions, why do you argue otherwise? For example Germany refuses to open Nord Stream 2, and Nord Stream 1 is broken due to sanctions on equipment repair - the turbines are made by Siemens and several are sitting in UK factories unable to be re-exported back due to sanctions. Although the troubles with…

You have quite the nerve to spread these falsehoods here, and then claim it's Europe that is the unreliable partner. Amazing and supremely twisted. I have no interest in discussing this with you as you're not here with good intentions, but I would let others know that Western countries were very accommodating with the spare parts, which in practice called the Russian bluff. I doubt Germany will go back to Russian gas…

No post body was provided.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#325

Post by deepserket »

bitL wrote: post #111
sva_ wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They also put out a plan which starts with asking people to use less electricity to worst case which would be planned 4 hour rolling blackouts. Time to buy some powerbanks

Any particular one to recommend?

For blackouts that last less than a day one or two 10Ah+ power banks with a flashlight built-in should be enough.

Remember to dress well so you won't freeze

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#326

Post by hi_herbert »

micwag wrote: post #139
origin_path wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Multiple gas pipelines from Russia are closed because European governments refuse to allow them to run. That's gas sanctions, why do you argue otherwise? For example Germany refuses to open Nord Stream 2, and Nord Stream 1 is broken due to sanctions on equipment repair - the turbines are made by Siemens and several are sitting in UK factories unable to be re-exported back due to sanctions. Although the troubles with…

> We also have to remember that Europe seized Russian euros and broke contracts in other ways First point is true, but the second ist not. Germany went out its way to ensure all contracts are fulfilled to avoid this claim. > it's not really obvious if Russia would even want to go back to selling to Europe. Russia very much wants to go back to selling gas and oil to europe, they have after all no other relevant indust…

No post body was provided.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#327

Post by fy20 »

sschueller wrote: post #8

Here is what Switzerland is doing at the moment to prevent the worst case which would be rolling black outs. They are planning for the worst case so they don't get caught with their pants down. This includes: - Currently trying to fill as many reservoirs as possible - Securing gas in foreign reservoirs. - Plan for emergency gas plants that can be operational by January/February, the time Switzerland has the least ele…

How exactly will rolling blackouts work when the grid spans many countries? What's to stop Germany saying they will pay more to keep some industry running if Poland turns off electricity to some homes?

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#328

Post by RC_ITR »

kennend3 wrote: post #281
moonchrome wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now nuclear costs 3-5x more and is simply not relevant. Compared to what ? Energy prices have jumped 2-3x in some places so far, and it's not even winter yet. Comparing renewable prices as averages or whatever is fine if you like blackouts ?

This is the CORE of the energy debate.. People throw out whatever nonsense they like to support their position. "Nuclear costs 3-5x" and as you point out, compared to what? The cost of sitting around for 20 years debating this and not taking any action at all has lead to much worse problems - power shortages. These "anti-nuclear" types fail to apply logic to their debate. I asked how much power is produced by solar d…

>solar is NOT viable in cold-weather climates

I agree with a lot of what you say, but also don't fall into the trap of what you are accusing others of doing.

In places like Germany, Wind and solar actually counter-balance each other very well. [0]

[0] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Seasonal-cycle-of-the-ca...

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#329

Post by fy20 »

tom_ wrote: post #259
teraflop wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's called a multiple-tariff meter. Of course it's easier to implement with modern electronics, but there's no reason you can't design an electromechanical meter device that has two different mechanisms to tally up "peak" and "off-peak" usage. I just did a quick Google search and found patents dating back to the 1970s.

Economy 7 in the UK switches meters based on time of day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_7

...which is triggered by a radio signal.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#330

Post by hi_herbert »

marvin wrote: post #145
foverzar wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's well known that this is not true Well known? Is it? Could you please give some reference then? No one would be surprised to see a "work-to-rule" action, but how is it "russian propaganda" that Europe had sanctioned Russian energy industry and it "somehow" had consequences?

Russian propaganda says that Nord Stream 1 is closed due to repairs. It obviously is not. It is closed because Russia wages economic warfare against Europe. You won't find a peer-reviewed double-blind study saying this, signed by foreign minister Lavrov with an interview in the appendix where he states that this is in fact Russia's deliberate policy choice, but one can use some basic reasoning. The desire for punishi…

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