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In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

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Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#321

Kuntz Law: in ANY/ALL resource constrained systems, giving advantage to 1 individual directly gives disadvantage to another. This is true whether it is seats on a bus, distribution of aid money, or college admission. You cannot give race based preference without simultaneously race based discrimination

In a purely meritocratic system, the result is the same as well due to the effects of crowding. If you have 100 applicants for a position, 90 of them from one background and 10 of them from another, the odds are that under a pure meritocratic position that all of your hires will end up being of one specific background. Which results in a downstream effect of other perfectly good candidates being filtered into lower q…

I fail to see how meritocratic systems would force any such selections.

Systems can and should select for the best candidates.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cite data that the KKK wants to end affirmative action? …uh, okay? [0] [0] https://www.csmonitor.com/1991/0613/13072.html

If we're using association with the KKK, then note that your favored organization the ACLU also has backed the Nazis and KKK on many occasions [0]. It's almost as if association with the KKK is not enough to impugn a policy. [0] https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-em-defends-kkks-rig...

It is 404 error. However, I added a few letters on the end of the URL and then it works.

They defend their right of freedom of speech, and I agree that they should have the right of freedom of speech, regardless of if I or whoever else agrees or disagrees with the some or all of statements that they will say.

Like they say, you must defend free speech of everyone (whether you agree with them or not), instead of risking the government arbitrarily decide what is, or is not, acceptable speech.

(It is like the quotation misattributed to Voltaire: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.")

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Beginning to repair that inequity is not racist. What is racist is to think you're inherently better than them, which is what many people who want to end affirmative action believe. By all means: cite the data that shows this.

Cite data that the KKK wants to end affirmative action? …uh, okay? [0] [0] https://www.csmonitor.com/1991/0613/13072.html

OK, now we have the citation.

Note that in this case they are allegedly "former KKK". But, whether they are KKK or not, it is not the criteria to evaluate how good any of their proposed policies are (or the quality of art, music, mathematics, books, etc); they should be evaluated by themself instead.

They say, "My bill only says that in cases when you hire or promote someone, you have to do so on the basis of their ability." It seems good to me, but there are other considerations that must be made, including all of the extra details that the bill might say. Sometimes they try to hide things, but even non-hidden things must be considered properly. For example, how do they intend to enforce it? Even, should it be enforced, anyways? (Maybe, or maybe not.) Some methods of trying to enforce it are not going to be good, regardless of what your intention is, I think. But, enforcement is not only issue, there are other things, too. The statement seems to be simple, but such things are rarely that simple. Note that they mention promotion as well as hiring. If you promote someone they should be competent for the job they are being promoted to, rather than for their current job.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Going to Yale is not the focus here You can’t say this after claiming someone “admitted to Yale may have no other opportunities at the kind of life a Yale graduate might receive.” What evidence do we have that this is uniquely enabling for a person of one race and not another? Yes, it may be uniquely enabling for the affirmative action candidate. But that doesn’t rule out it being uniquely life changing for someone…

I can absolutely say that Yale being the only opportunity for some folks makes this bigger than “going to Yale”, in fact that’s exactly what I’ve been saying this whole time. For the affirmative action kids, Yale is a big deal, for the kids AA bumps out, Yale is not nearly as big of a deal. And yes, we’re dealing in aggregate. Trying to cite specific counterexamples to the statistics is a waste of time because the wh…

> for the kids AA bumps out, Yale is not nearly as big of a deal

This is a massive, life-changing assumption you’ve made.

> do you care that certain minorities are massively underrepresented in many aspects of prosperity or not?

Yes. The consistent counter argument is this is a destructive way to address that problem.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does acknowledgement of favor manifest if not by punitive discrimination? Is a simple admission of favor sufficient, or must corrective action be taken? It seems that this is simply the argument for why the punitive belief is just.

I had another response to a now-deleted reply, but I'll put it here. Ultimately, there are policies and practices in place that try to mitigate documented structural disadvantages for underrepresented groups using a counterweight of procedural advantage . There is a debate to be had here (though I won't have it online), but the reality is true fairness and justice cannot occur without an intentional efforts to redres…

Independent of supporting justification, I think that denying the concept of procedural disadvantage while proposing procedural advantage is also dishonest semantics. In a zero-sum competition like hiring or admission, adjusting the criteria to give advantage to one is identical to giving a disadvantage to the other. Any denial of this fact taints the credibility of the speaker.

I fully agree that certain individuals face significant structural disadvantages. I actually think that most people, including those seeking social justice, are blind to many of those structural disadvantages because they find them distasteful to admit, and too adjacent to racist talking points.

If one recognizes that structural advantage exist, as we do, the questions become the appropriate methods and timeline for resolving inequity. This last one is particularly complex, and almost never discussed in any context. The reality is that even in the best case scenario, true equality without a hand on the scale will be a multi-generational project.

Regarding methods, I think it is important to note that while racial groups share many similar experiences, suffering takes place at the individual level, and individual circumstances vary widely. Heavy handed policies that treat all blacks or all whites as equivalent to each other will always have a lot of inherent injustice and collateral damage baked into them. A poor white immigrant from Ukraine is not the same as a rich white bankers son. A rich black immigrant is not the same as poor inner city child with the baggage of 200 years of systemic racism.

When folk talk of procedural advantage based on race, what many people hear is "you are acceptable collateral damage".

I think the more the conversation admits who will suffer and benefit from efforts to reduce inequities of birth, the more honest and productive discussion we can have.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#326
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because when they were mostly poor railroad workers, they were easily manipulated, and now that they're middle-class professionals, they aren't?

How did that happen if America is so systematically racist that races can't get ahead on their own without positive discrimination?

We're only racist with an eye toward particular races. Allegedly.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#327
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My argument is if you want to help disadvantaged people you can't look at race. The race of a person does not determine how good their life is and doesn't tell you anything about their privilege. A black person with a large amount of wealth is almost certainly in a more privileged situation than a poor white who is addicted to fentanyl. Why should the white person be put at a partial disadvantage because of his skin…

I believe you may have missed the term "all else equal" (or ceterus paribus) somewhere along the way. Your point is "well, duh" because your comparison is not valid. The way you are proposing, it compares apples and oranges. To my understanding, the folks that study these kinds of things would split the situations you are describing into two groups, then compare group outcome statistics outcomes by race. Racism exist…

I don't believe there are any situations that are equal, except perhaps twins. No other situation can have "all else equal". This may be the crux of our disagreement.

Black people may have worse outcomes as a whole, but an individual black person may not be worse off. You cannot assume an individual is identical to the group. Black people commit more crimes. Does that mean if you see a black person you can assume they are a criminal? I don't think you can, but it sounds like following your reasoning you can.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#328
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the danger of focusing on equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity. In my opinion, the former is not possible anyway, it's not a good goal. People are different and they're going to have different outcomes, even if only considering chance. But they should have the same opportunities regardless of race, gender, etc. Making policy to address this is tackling the root of the problem instead of the…

> This is the danger of focusing on equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity. In my opinion, the former is not possible anyway, For this statement alone the left can label you as far right. In the past 10 years or so, I repeatedly hear a consistent message: we fight for equal outcome. And of course, identity is a critical factor, if not the only factor, in this fight. I'm actually very curious how the A…

I always thought of myself as quite left of center. Now I find myself on the right, and I don't understand if I became more conservative as I got older, or if the center moved past me to the left.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#329
post #258
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the thought in academia which leads to Marxism was actually evidence-based, then it should be easy to cite evidence for Marxism. You'd just have to read what they say and quote their arguments. But it is not. Evidence for Marxism that I've seen boils down to rhetoric. Evidence against Marxism involves mass famines, low economic productivity, failed predictions, and so on. Therefore a significant fraction of Marxis…

"Marxism" is a tricky term to use in an discussion because it means such different things to different people. The commonly understood meaning of "Marxism" differs significantly from the socioeconomic theories and models that Marx wrote about. Even among academics, there are many different schools of Marxist thought. The evidence against Marx's theories isn't "mass famines, low economic productivity" but his failed p…

First, please note that "failed predictions" in my list of arguments against Marxism. My list was, "Evidence against Marxism involves mass famines, low economic productivity, failed predictions, and so on." In other words people who have attempted to apply Marx's theories have created disasters, places which follow his theories do poorly, academics who apply his theories to predicting stuff, get it wrong, and so on. As far as I can tell, any evidence-based assessment of Marxism comes up with a big fat zero.

Second, I wouldn't call myself particularly well-educated on Marxism, but I know somewhat more than the average person. And you're right that a Maoist is different than someone who studies Critical Race Theory, even though both may self-identify as Marxists. (And conversely both may NOT self-identify as Marxists even though Marxist thought has a deep impact on both.) However the "big fat zero" for Marxism includes, as far as I know, all derivative theories as well. But there are enough of them that I know little enough about that I won't recommend being particularly confident of that stronger statement.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#330
post #277
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile, everybody pays taxes so we have the data we need to not use racial discrimination. Actually, the very wealthy _don't_ pay a ton in taxes, depending on how their wealth is invested and distributed. What wealthy folks often do is to take lending against their assets, giving them liquidity. This is not taxable income.

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