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Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

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Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#321
post #18

I moved into IT from "formal" engineering and its always frustrated me that a job that involves working on extremely expensive engines using upper level college math gets paid almost nothing compared to people who change colors on a webpage every once in a while. I've been on floors where multi-million dollar pieces of equipment are used to produce parts with obscene levels of precision being used by expert machinist…

The most you can get paid is the amount your company thinks it would cost to replace you. The difficulty of your job has absolutely nothing to do with how much you’re paid, other than maybe reducing labor supply a bit. But there are tons of smart people, if the opportunities exist people will come. Every business needs a bespoke website, so all the web developers have plenty of work. Their options mean that if a comp…

>Expert machinists using fancy equipment in a factory don’t really have the same ability to just go to a competitor, so they can’t negotiate a raise.

Machinists own their own tools, in general... and I knew a CNC machinist who quit, went somewhere else, and came back to the shop I was working in over the course of a few months... they aren't easy to replace, even in a job shop. The equipment is a sunk cost, and if you don't have someone who knows how to use it, you're wasting money while it's idle.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, the issue is that all of the EE work went to China. It's very difficult to find a company in the west where you could go to do an engineering apprenticeship and learn how to build cool stuff, because all of them outsourced their "building cool stuff" operations years ago. And designing things when you cannot try out your design (or when you need to wait 2 weeks for a parcel from China for each attempt)…

Yep, this was my experience. I graduated a double degree of EE and Comp Science. My final year thesis was a project with a local company integrating their custom designed GPRS module with a GPS module to demonstrate mobile tracking tech (it was 2003). Because of the project I went straight into a hardware design job out of uni. I was designing boards for mobiles! Working on circuit design, prototyping PCBs, I was psy…

Funnily enough, there are quite a few Australian (and a few Kiwi) companies in the telematics space these days. Not sure how many of them are designing hardware from scratch though, versus off the shelf devices with custom firmware.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#323
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know you use the term 'paradox' loosely, but all you are saying is investments pay off, which is hardly a paradox!

The paradox is that automation didn't render us jobless.

That's not a paradox. The actual confusing thing is that people believe automation will make them jobless, despite economists not believing this happens, and "rich people fire everyone and replace them with computers" being the plot of Atlas Shrugged rather than a real life scenario.

Jobs come from comparative advantage and demand; demand is infinite and it's not possible for a worker to not have comparative advantage at something, even if it's niche.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#324

EE spent so many years making sure everyone knew it's impossibly hard, the professors eat their young, etc. I've seen this in other professions where the incumbents desperately want to impose, in actuality, the uphill-both-ways life story they believe they endured. And then they are shocked when the young peace out. The military, and their insanely rigorous special warfare training. The medical profession in general.…

Yep. I was so stoked on EE in high school. Took the first EE course in college and got as far away from it as possible after that. Subject matter was interesting, but the professor took every ounce of fun out.

I have a BS EE, my day job now is lower level software/firmware - almost entirely with Linux these days but have done a fair share of bare metal, too. My favorite course in university was my 2nd year circuits course, the professor who taught it had a research grant to study how to better teach electrical engineering to undergrads, and it showed. I vividly remember demonstrations and labs we did in that class even 20 years later.

I imagine part of the problem is there's just fewer EEs than there are CS grads, so the EEs who end up teaching might be the best at that in their field but since the field of CS grads is so much larger you generally get better teachers in CS. I feel there's also been a huge push to make CS approachable over the past 30 years and it shows, it's easy to find great teachers both online and in universities for CS. It's much harder to find good teachers for EE.

Knowing EE or CS does not make a good teacher. Being a good teacher is significantly more than simply knowing the material.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#326
post #18

I moved into IT from "formal" engineering and its always frustrated me that a job that involves working on extremely expensive engines using upper level college math gets paid almost nothing compared to people who change colors on a webpage every once in a while. I've been on floors where multi-million dollar pieces of equipment are used to produce parts with obscene levels of precision being used by expert machinist…

Because real engineers become hyper-specialists and get trapped. My one my high school classmates was a mechanical engineer who was one of the top guys for some semiconductor process that failed to scale and got abandoned. Got laid off and was unemployable. He sold herballife to go back to school and is a physical therapist now. It happens in software too. Plenty of sad tales of geezers let go from banks and governme…

I think it's a mindset that people "get" trapped. I know many engineers who are trapped, but it was their own doing, they never tried to avoid the trap and have never worked hard to get out from it. It's a mindset, it's easy to fall into. You get paid well enough, things are stable, you become an expert within a company or industry, and you feel valued when your expertise is found to be important. If you don't work to get yourself out of that trap, to expand your own value and knowledge, then you get stuck both in a job and in a salary range. Sometimes this is fine, sometimes it's a horrible experience, it all depends on what the person is striving for.

I've worked with many people who were realistically less than 5 years from retirement, most of them were "trapped" but this was often by design. They knew they could ride out the next 5 years getting paid pretty well, having low stress, and the stability of this ensured that they'd hit their retirement financial numbers. Sometimes younger engineers fall into this trap, and that's when it's sad, often they don't even realize it and no one tells them.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand how the market dynamics work here. As a software engineer, I feel like the market is flooded with workers, and that it is an easy job. I have no idea how we’ve managed to sustain these salaries for so long. At some point, I keep expecting a correction in salaries simply due to supply / demand. I also keep thinking, surely other industries will start paying more and treating folks better, so they ca…

You may find SE an easy job, but it isn't for most people. It requires above average: - Working memory capacity - Tolerance to extreme frustration, persistence - Ability to learn fast - Capacity to deal with particularly high incidence of imposter syndrome - I could keep going all day... SE is not overpaid. I actually think it's underpaid. Above all, the profession pushes for an early retirement.

>It requires above average: [...]

Literally all those traits you listed are needed as an EE(and in many other white collar and blue collar professions too) plus add even more scary stuff like advanced math (for PID tuning, system signal processing, system modelling and simulation, etc.), but for way less pay that even a kid making iOS apps who hasn't passed highschool math can out-earn you. So how is that fair? My example was a slight exaggeration, though I bet there are plenty of mobile app kiddies making more than EEs.

My point is not that SW devs and app kiddies are overpaid, but that in comparison to them, pretty much any other career is massively underpaid, even the related ones like EE, since the barrier of entry is higher and the pay is lower.

To wit, there was a highly popular and controversial topic on my country's subreddit where a youngster was asking half snarky, half serious: "What's the point of going to school, when I make 65k/year as a self taught web-dev without needing any of the useless knowledge I had to learn in school, while the people who go into professions where they actually do need that knowledge from school for their career (engineering, medical, farming, chemistry, nursing, etc.) can end up earning less than me, a school dropout and mediocre webdev?"

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#329
I did a degree in Electrcial Engineering, as in volts and amps, as opposed to Electronics Engineering (or Communications, Computer and various other discplines of EE offered).

I now do design related to power, instruments, electrical, controls, equipment design for explosive atmospheres, thermodynamics (steam), lighting, functional safety etc etc - which also means I do networking, software architecture and programming (mostly industrial controllers, but also tools for my own use) and pretty well anything with a wire.

To get to the point where you are designing real stuff, stuff the public might interact with and mis-use or have it harm them, without very tight direction and supervision is:

4 years degree 3 years graduate engineer 3 years junior enginner

and then you are just an engineer, so thats 10 years, same time to become a specialist doctor and easily as difficult to do well.

After that there is senior, lead and then principal engineer. Many peopoe never go past senior in their lives, lead and principal take qualities that start becoming all about personality as much as technical abilities, though a real talent in either direction may well rise.

It's a lot of work, the turnover annually of knowledge is one of the highest there is, based on rule of 72 wiith 6% new or updated knowledge to acquire each year just to stand still without developing means 100% in 12 years, in a full careeer thats the equivelent of 3-4 degrees worth of learning, often totally new concepts, that might need to be made during the working life of an engineer.

In order to do this it probably means you spend a certain amount of your "free time" on related interests, eg ham radio, recreational computing, side projects whatever.

It's reasonably well paid, but in order to really be good at it you don't do it for the money, you do it because you like it, it is calling. You would probably do it for free if they had good work and you were fed and housed comfortably. If that is not the case, then maybe it is not for you.

First year EE graduates are looking at around 90k starting, 30 odd percent start at over 100k according to our local university.

Mining engineering graduates might be looking at 120-150k first year out )remote or fly in fly out) right now, they are being wined and dined by prospective employers starting in first year of studying undergraduate!!!

So it's still probably underpaid though, even though at the twenty year mark EE might stretch to 200-250k pa, more in high cost centres or particular circumstances. but the span of knowledge required and responsibility is very high.

As they say, most doctors only kill one patient at a time (and then bury them), engineers can kill a whole heap of people all at once...

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, the issue is that all of the EE work went to China. It's very difficult to find a company in the west where you could go to do an engineering apprenticeship and learn how to build cool stuff, because all of them outsourced their "building cool stuff" operations years ago. And designing things when you cannot try out your design (or when you need to wait 2 weeks for a parcel from China for each attempt)…

Yep, this was my experience. I graduated a double degree of EE and Comp Science. My final year thesis was a project with a local company integrating their custom designed GPRS module with a GPS module to demonstrate mobile tracking tech (it was 2003). Because of the project I went straight into a hardware design job out of uni. I was designing boards for mobiles! Working on circuit design, prototyping PCBs, I was psy…

Very similar to me! Double degree in EE/IT, my first job out of uni was with a small company building gps chips. I actually spent a lot of time writing testing software. A couple of years in it went down the drain and I just naturally transitioned in to a software role (paid a lot better).
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