Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: the corporation • Hacker News Board

Re: Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: the corporation

#321

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 12, 2022, 11:49 PM UTC

kar5pt wrote: post #310

pc2g4d wrote: post #281

"Chen: What we see is the erasure of Buddhism as a religion or tradition that Asians or Asian Americans can claim or identify with." She writes from a race-essentialist framing to a degree and that drives me crazy. "white Americans" "white Westerners" x6 There's a sort of cultural appropriation shame being layered here---as if it's bad to have light skin and be interested in Buddhism, or adapt Buddhism to your existi…

I don't think she's claiming that there's anything wrong with "white buddhism". In fact, she seems to explicitly deny that view >I want to clarify, by the way, that I’m not necessarily critical of American Buddhist entrepreneurs. The problem is if you mistake this white American Buddhism for all Buddhism, or claim that this is the “right” or “only” way to practice Buddhism. The idea that American Buddhism has been di…

[deleted]

Re: Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: the corporation

#322

Post by NoraCodes » Tue, Jul 12, 2022, 11:50 PM UTC

throwawayacc2 wrote: post #311

NoraCodes wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough - I didn't mean to imply that you hadn't said that, the quote was merely to delimit the area I was addressing. Am I correct, then, in thinking your response to people currently harmed by social structures they have no choice in interacting with is, basically, "I agree that this sucks, but I don't support changing anything to fix it."?

> Am I correct, then, in thinking your response to people currently harmed by social structures they have no choice in interacting with is, basically, "I agree that this sucks, but I don't support changing anything to fix it."? I don’t know about the guy you’re asking but the way I would tackle this question is, first by point out in some cases the “harm” is only perceived. To give you an example of this, a claim oft…

> To give you an example of this, a claim often made is “trans kids are being harmed due to lack of access to hormones/surgery”. I find this revolting. I would consider, for this example at least, the current system is doing good in protecting them, certainly it is not harming them.

Then I probably don't care about your opinion on this - we are almost certainly speaking from completely different ontological perspectives.

I asked the person I was replying to, because they seemed to have values at least somewhat compatible with mine, and thus I expect to learn something from them.

Re: Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: the corporation

#323

Post by gedy » Tue, Jul 12, 2022, 11:50 PM UTC

makeitdouble wrote: post #318

gedy wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An ironic one seen was a black person stopping and scolding a white person for wearing dreadlocks as some sort of cultural theft, but she herself was wearing a Scottish weave sweater and speaking English.

Are you describing a kid living in the UK/US wearing their school uniform scolding an adult wearing dreadlocks ?

No was SFSU: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jDlQ4H0Kdg8

Re: Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: the corporation

#324

Post by throwawayacc2 » Tue, Jul 12, 2022, 11:50 PM UTC

kmeisthax wrote: post #276

throwawayacc2 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's destroying them by removing the meaning from them. And then repackaging the symbols - usually with a vague implication of profundity and exoticism - as a marketable commodity. Sort of like the monarchies of Europe have been turned into republics in all but name, the culture of “divine right of kings” destroyed but the trappings of monarchy are still used but devoid of meaning. And often used as marketing mater…

A better analogy would be what Disney did to the Brothers Grimm. In fact, Disney is probably the poster child for this shit, given how much they lobbied to extend copyright law so that nobody could do to them what they did to Europe's fairy tales.

No, the point was to provide an example of a cultural artefact being stripped of meaning and most people not being particularly affected by it in a negative way.

In fact, in the example, I would think most people are in agreement destroying the cultural artefact of absolute monarchy and wearing it’s hollow trappings as marketing props to boost the tourism industry is a good thing.

I genuinely don’t understand this obsession with “preserving the original meaning”. As if it actually exists, it does not, everything is a perversion of everything else. Even assuming there was some “original meaning”, why would hollowing it out, or twisting it into the very opposite matter in any way? It’s just another mutated idea in the long line of mutated ideas that make up human thought.

Re: Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: the corporation

#325

Post by standardUser » Tue, Jul 12, 2022, 11:51 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #304

standardUser wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a twisted version of reality you just presented. The US has in no way, shape or form returned to the "status quo in most advanced countries". Perhaps with some convoluted rhetoric you can argue that, but in practice the difference is undeniable. Policies regarding abortion have one gone in one direction in recent decades (in both advanced and less advanced economies) and there is only a single massive outlier th…

You’re confusing the concept of “status quo” (the current state) with the direction of change. Roe took the US outside the mainstream among developed countries. Just a couple of years after Roe , the German constitutional court found that legalized abortion violated the Basic Law’s right to life. In the intervening decades, only a handful of other high courts recognized abortion as a right, rather than a legislative…

"So yes, undoing Roe returned us to the mainstream."

Repeating that just makes you sound like a pedant more concerned with crafting an argument than grappling with the real world situation. In terms of abortion access, the thing actual humans care about, the US just joined the cultural hinterland in denying abortion access to a vast amount of its populace.

Re: Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: the corporation

#326

Post by standardUser » Tue, Jul 12, 2022, 11:53 PM UTC

messe wrote: post #309

standardUser wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The West violently occupied most of the non-Western world and forced its culture on to those peoples.

So, if I'm from a western country that was occupied, colonised and had a foreign culture forced upon it, it would not be considered appropriation if I were to adopt non-western schools of thought?

If that hypothetical makes you happy, sure. But I think most people can easily tell the difference between the widespread colonization that occurred for hundreds of years and whatever historical anomalies you have in mind with that leading question.

Re: Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: the corporation

#327

Post by thisiscorrect » Tue, Jul 12, 2022, 11:53 PM UTC

makeitdouble wrote: post #315

thisiscorrect wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow these arguments about cultural appropriation only ever go one way. I've never heard anyone claim that it's cultural appropriation when non-Westerners adopt -- and benefit from -- various Western schools of thought. I've never felt the urge to gate-keep, say, the germ theory of disease from non-Westerners. What right do I have to do that? What right does the author have to gate-keep Buddhism? Why do people do…

On going the other way, there is/was quite a reaction on China half-ripping off Disney (!) characters in regional parks or goods. I'd argue China making "knock-off"s or "stealing our IP" is pretty close to that as well. Then, it's pretty hard to culturally appropriate Christianity when it's setup with a doctrine of expansion and push to fit everywhere it can. That was basically the premise of colonialism in the early…

> there is/was quite a reaction on China half-ripping off Disney (!) characters in regional parks or goods. I'd argue China making "knock-off"s or "stealing our IP" is pretty close to that as well.

Companies trying to make trademark, patent and copyright claims seems like an entirely different matter from people complaining about cultural appropriation. The former is typically by people who may have a legal basis for claiming ownership over an idea (the merits of which is a different conversation, in my opinion).

I don't get the sense that the article's author is attempting to make a copyright claim on Buddhism here. This is just ethnic turf staking.

Re: Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: the corporation

#328

Post by makeitdouble » Tue, Jul 12, 2022, 11:53 PM UTC

thisiscorrect wrote: post #312

standardUser wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The West violently occupied most of the non-Western world and forced its culture on to those peoples.

Let's apply that same reasoning on a different scale. Rome violently occupied most of Europe and forced its culture on to those peoples. Therefore, most Europeans may eat as much pizza as they like. But if an Italian so much as looks at a croissant or wears pants, they've done A Cultural Appropriation. Seems sensible to me!

Your example would stand if Rome was the #1 economic power, was also the #1 producer of movies in the world, exported it's myths and culture all around the world all year long, forced their neighboring countries into trade partnerships to make sure Rome's products (including their music, movies, beverages etc.) weren't blocked from competing with local products.

Then yes, people could be pissed at Rome companies also producing "Rome croissant" that were to globally compete with French croissants and take their place on other countries' shelves.

Re: Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: the corporation

#329

Post by no_butterscotch » Tue, Jul 12, 2022, 11:55 PM UTC

emptysongglass wrote: post #112

throwawayacc2 wrote: post #93

I stopped reading upon seeing at the very stop this “ Silicon Valley is the latest player in a history of Western appropriation of Buddhism” I was very curious about the article. I am wondering if it treats ideas such as “hire fast fire fast” - In a way a concept related to the Buddhist ideas of detachment, or the opposite, “bing your whole self to work” which in a way seems contradictory - you have attachments, cont…

I had a coworker recently tell me I was culturally appropriating the Buddha (I'm a Buddhist) presumably because I am "from the West". Apart from being one of the most offensive things I've ever been told (before anyone jumps on me for this: I can still observe it as offensive regardless of my attachment to the offense) it confirmed for me that whatever is going on in the US with identity politics has jumped the shark…

Yikes, how did you respond to this? Was it an off-hand comment or a serious accusation on their part (were they legitimately offended)?

Is this co-worker a peer, a superior, or are you their superior?

Re: Buddhism has found a new institutional home in the West: the corporation

#330

Post by markdown » Tue, Jul 12, 2022, 11:55 PM UTC

squabbles wrote: post #277

markdown wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "appropriation" is when you take cultural ideas from colonised places of the world and use them in inappropriate ways. Cultural appreciation = wearing a chinese cheongsam in a culturally appropriate situation because you think it's beautiful and you love the dress. Cultural appropriation = wearing grass skirts and coconut shell brassiers and getting wasted at a "tiki" frat party.

There is no inappropriate way to use clothes you own, unless you're using it to strangle someone. The people who get upset about people wearing things from "their" culture are always deracinated diaspora with no real connection to the culture. People who are healthily embedded in a culture don't get upset about foreigners "misusing" their cultural bric-a-brac, they have real lives to attend to. And if you're getting…

Tell that to the Americans who remove photos of Pacific Island people wearing their traditional clothing despite genitalia being covered.

Tell that to every human on HN and see if they start wearing their nighties and undergarments, and bikinis to their silicon valley workplaces.

It's not a free-for-all, so don't pretend that cultural norms don't exist.

Jeez, this "I'll take what I want and fuck ya'll" American culture is sickening.