Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#321

Post by moneywoes » Sat, Jun 11, 2022, 4:22 PM UTC

kodah wrote: post #155

another_poster wrote: post #109

Individual states’ pay transparency laws are already applying upwards pressure on salaries across the country. My company has multiple groups in different states including Colorado, and in anticipation of needing to post salary ranges for our open positions in Colorado, my group (with no positions in Colorado) preemptively bumped up everyone’s salaries to the midpoint of their pay bands to avoid anyone becoming frust…

I'm leaving my company because it took so much "upwards pressure" to make this happen. Literally hundreds of people screaming in a townhall that the companies wages were so low that housing was eating up most of their paycheck while mandating a return to work from the top. This is in the Bay Area. I do think there's something to be said about a company that does not tend to the needs of its flock proactively.

What company?

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#322

Post by phendrenad2 » Sat, Jun 11, 2022, 5:21 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #160

dubcanada wrote: post #54

There are a ton of people here who probably make 6 figures complaining about pay ranges in job postings. I am not sure I fully see how this is a problem, any minimum wage job says pay range (or a specific rate), any job for dish washers or line cooks say $18 a hour or what not, a tech job with a six figure salary should at least say a range, since it varies based on skill and department. I haven't read a single respo…

At some point as a high achiever you end up worrying about the ceiling rather than the floor. For example, let's say a software job is listed with a range of $200k to $250k comp. And you want more than that. But will the employer be willing, or allowed, to negotiate with you an amount over $250k? After all, the job posting says $250k is the top of the range. Maybe it would be illegal to pay you more! But at a company…

They can always give you a title increase. Some companies have 8-10 engineering levels mow because of this effect.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#323

Post by nvr219 » Sun, Jun 12, 2022, 12:38 AM UTC

luxuryballs wrote: post #286

nvr219 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's the actual problem that including salaries tries to solve? It tries to solve pay equity problems. https://hr.uw.edu/comp/pay-equity/salary-setting-guidance/

But what’s the actual problem?

Pay inequity is an actual problem.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#324

Post by anticensor » Sun, Jun 12, 2022, 9:38 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #45

chrismeller wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Software Engineer I - 40-250k”

anything preventing them from doing very large ranges like that?

The state could publish an executive order stating "pay ranges for a given job post may not simultaneously cover three or more public servant pay grades".

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#325

Post by InefficientRed » Sun, Jun 12, 2022, 7:01 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #310

snuxoll wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to go check the match of the big tech companies again. Google: Greater of 100% up to $3000, or 50% up to contribution limit (whichever is greater) Amazon: 50% up to 4%, vests after 3 years Microsoft: 50% up to contribution limit Facebook: 100% up to half of limit, 50% for the rest Netflix: 100% up to 4% I also don't just get the 120% up to 6%, I also get a fixed 4% of my salary contributed every year.…

Still have trouble seeing how this comes out ahead. Say you're at Google or Microsoft where it's 50% up to contribution limit, and you get $10K in match. That puts you down $12.8K vs. your hypothetical. If you're getting paid $45K more at the FANG, you pay 35% taxes on it, which puts you $30K ahead after-tax, and then you invest that in an after-tax 401k (or even just a normal investment account), after which you're…

Also, FAANG will negotiate offers against fringe benefits. They won't cut you a custom 401K deal, but they will beat any offer by 20%+ and include the post-tax cash equivalent of better retirement packages in that beat. If you ask for it and if they want you badly enough.

Assuming you can get a gross offer that matches net, having the money in post-tax accounts is better because the tax rate on the 401K at withdrawal will likely be higher than the 15% capital gains rate.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#326

Post by anticensor » Mon, Jun 13, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

mobiuscog wrote: post #38

potamic wrote: post #2

I wonder why only the US. If they believe pay transparency is the right way forward, they should do it globally. Surely there's no legal hurdles in posting pay ranges for any country.

They don't believe pay transparency is the way forward - they're just fending off some US laws and trying to gain kudos for doing so. As you mention, if they really wanted to be transparent, it would be global, but I doubt they want to expose those differences.

Unfortunately, some countries actually prohibit publishing employee salaries.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#327

Post by bmelton » Mon, Jun 13, 2022, 9:28 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #265

bmelton wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nit to pick: States can and do regulate interstate commerce all the time. California once banned the import of foie gras into the state, and IIRC are planning a law banning the import of foreign oil. Some states ban the import of firearms they don't wish to exist. Whether they should be allowed to engage in the regulation of interstate commerce for activities that occur entirely extra-state is probably more along wha…

> California once banned the import of foie gras into the state No, it banned sale of foie gras entirely (it did not single out importation), and even so the ban, to the extent that it prohibited individual consumers from buying it for import from out-of-state vendors, was struck down by a federal trial court in 2020 as a violation of the dormant commerce clause, a decision this year upheld by the Ninth Circuit, so i…

I appreciate the clarity on my clumsy post. I knew of the added detail on the foie gras case but didn't bother making the more direct point I was trying to make is more that they _can get away with_ moreso than _they are clearly allowed to do_ these things.

We all have opinions on what states can and can't do, and while I agree that precedent should prevent something like this, the fact remains that while you and I agree that they shouldn't be able to, there's nothing to stop them trying, and even perhaps succeeding (at the very least, for however many years it takes for someone to show injury and maybe get it overturned.)

Sincerely, I appreciate you.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#328

Post by listenallyall » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 5:54 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #315

listenallyall wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mandating? Every employee at the company voluntarily agreed to the terms of their employment, the wage, the location, etc. prior to starting.

It's a mandate. They could have mandated that remote work is acceptable. They didn't. They are now surprised that people are leaving. Just like how if you don't like the mandates issued by your government, you are free to move to a different country. Or to petition it to change them. They are still mandates, though, despite you choosing out of your own free will to submit to them, by virtue of not leaving. This websi…

I'm a citizen of the country I was born in, which I did not choose. I can leave the country physically, but that itself doesn't invalidate my citizenship, or my obligation to pay taxes.

You choose the company you work for, and you can leave at any time, and you don't owe them a thing.

So no, it's not at all "just like"

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#329

Post by Frost1x » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 11:07 AM UTC

aerosmile wrote: post #260

cogman10 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google still has options (which, granted, they've exercised) including adding more remote offices. They don't want to do that because they've already spent a bunch of money on their fancy HQ and don't want to see it empty out. There are plenty of employers with < 1000 employees, however, crowding these downtown areas. They have way more flexibility in being able to move out of these city centers and into more afforda…

> They don't because part of the reason for their offices in these downtown location is rich people showing off to other rich people. You gotta "look" successful. If an office is moved to a less densely populated area, the average commute time of all employees collectively ends up increasing. The way rich people actually show off to other rich people is by doing what's right for their companies, thereby increasing th…

>If an office is moved to a less densely populated area, the average commute time of all employees collectively ends up increasing.

Not necessarily. I've lived in rural areas and the number of miles you could travel per minute is significantly higher than the miles per minute in an urban area. My current commute time would be the equivalent of around 15 miles in the very much less urban area. Also when you factor in that property is cheaper for things like parking and factor in extremely easy door to door parking, commute times drop down even more. At one point I lived in a condo and had to walk 8 minutes from my condo door down the garage to my parking spot. I now have a house and my car is directly out my side door.

Population density relative to commute doesn't seem to be such a clear cut relationship. In theory in a dense area you have to travel less, in reality people work where they can and don't want to move constantly so commute times can get quite long.