Americans are poorly served by their grocery stores • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans are poorly served by their grocery stores

#321

Post by morsch » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 5:58 AM UTC

noirbot wrote: post #237

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #25

> but they do not have the size that European supermarkets have to resist price increases by suppliers. Walmart bankrupted Vlassic by suckering them into a deal where they were stuck selling pickles at a loss. They are infamous for dictating price to their suppliers.

Yea, that seems totally bunk outside of double or single-digit store companies. Even the regional US chains like Publix or HEB or Fred Meyer are as large as many EU chains outside of Tesco, which may as well be the Walmart of Europe. I'm just tired of so many articles whose whole premise is "the US isn't doing thing X that a smaller, denser, and massively older country has done." Yea, the US has issues and is respons…

Even the regional US chains like Publix or HEB or Fred Meyer are as large as many EU chains outside of Tesco, which may as well be the Walmart of Europe.

Tesco isn't the largest chain in Europe. Walmart is bigger than the large European chains, by a factor of (just?) about 5 to 10.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1103223/leading-grocery-...

https://payspacemagazine.com/retail/top-7-supermarket-chains...

Re: Americans are poorly served by their grocery stores

#322

Post by solarmist » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 5:59 AM UTC

burnished wrote: post #314

ramraj07 wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d trust a good can of tomatoes before I touch the borderline unappealing off season strawberries they have in those markets. Happy that you’re trying not to judge but looks like you still have a ways to go before getting off a high horse. As oogway says, “one often meets their destiny on their path to avoid it.” When I remember the solid research showing people taking multivitamins die faster I keep thinking what m…

>Like your railing on frozen food. You realize frozen food is far fresher and less likely to have “chemicals” or whatever is your choice enemy right? I think you're making stuff up here.

Nope. This is true, but phrased in adversarial way. Google flash frozen foods.

When frozen they can pause the aging of the food at a chosen time vs shipping it both the consumer and shipper are hoping to get the timing right. So frozen goods have much better control over the state of the food the reaches the consumer. Freezing also physically protects foods by making them harder.

Re: Americans are poorly served by their grocery stores

#323

Post by billjings » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 6:01 AM UTC

yojo wrote: post #184

throwaway892238 wrote: post #160

I guess people have forgotten the world before supermarkets (the replacement for traditional 'grocery stores'). You could not buy a pineapple or a banana or an orange. It was impossible. What made it possible were the literal overthrow of governments by corporations that acted like pirates with a monopoly on a given crop, in combination with technical and logistical revolutions. It's also amazing to see supermarkets…

Per the article, American supermarkets have the same profits (~2%) as cheaper European ones, but much higher fixed costs. Some of these costs are the cost of inputs, but that only explains so much; wholesale food prices are much lower than what you pay at the grocery store. Political wing-nuttery aside, I don't see who you think is the culpable party here. Trade is a boogeyman - most countries import way more of thei…

Per the article, companies like Tyson upstream in the supply chain are taking record profits. So high wholesale prices due to concentration of suppliers is indeed a major part of the equation.

Re: Americans are poorly served by their grocery stores

#324

Post by ABeeSea » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 6:01 AM UTC

js2 wrote: post #305

w-ll wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel the same with with orange juice FROM concentrate vs the shelf stable stuff, everyone calls me crazy for it.

I’m from Florida. You’re crazy. Both are equally bad. If you want fresh orange juice, buy Florida oranges and squeeze the juice yourself. They aren’t very good for eating though. For that you want California navels. (Florida’s true delicacies are the keylime and the stone crab. I’ve never gotten a keylime in a grocery store that comes close to what grows on the trees in the state. And stone crab you’ll never find in…

Stone Crab claws are one of the greatest seafoods in the US. But due to the way they are harvested (single claw snapped off and the rest of the crab thrown back), you have to eat them immediately so no shipping.

Re: Americans are poorly served by their grocery stores

#325

Post by TrispusAttucks » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 6:03 AM UTC

lettergram wrote: post #260

DubiousPusher wrote: post #172

I grew up in Montana so I am probably one of the few millennial Americans that probably recalls what life is like before supermarkets. They were just becoming a thing there as I was growing up. (Very, What's Eating Gilbert Grape.) We had an IGA in the small town I grew up in. The fresh food options there were borderline Soviet. We went to a butcher to get our meat when we didn't have meat from hunting. We got produce…

For what it’s worth I grew up with super markets and it still blows my mind. Has since I was a kid, how do I have strawberries in winter!? It’s also what has enabled us to diversify. Easy to obtain any food, any time, without much meal prep. I personally am still looking to grow, store and remain self-sufficiently. But it’s entirely a life style choice; built out of my fear for the further. Ask yourself, can the next…

> Ask yourself, can the next generation build supermarkets? I don’t know if they could. It’s an amazing work logistics. Further, it requires California and growing food in desert. It also requires an abundance of energy for transport AND international trade. All of which is under tremendous pressure.

Yep. You're saying the quiet part out loud. Ssshhh.

Re: Americans are poorly served by their grocery stores

#326

Post by klodolph » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 6:05 AM UTC

burnished wrote: post #314

ramraj07 wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d trust a good can of tomatoes before I touch the borderline unappealing off season strawberries they have in those markets. Happy that you’re trying not to judge but looks like you still have a ways to go before getting off a high horse. As oogway says, “one often meets their destiny on their path to avoid it.” When I remember the solid research showing people taking multivitamins die faster I keep thinking what m…

>Like your railing on frozen food. You realize frozen food is far fresher and less likely to have “chemicals” or whatever is your choice enemy right? I think you're making stuff up here.

No, the sentiment about frozen food being superior is on the mark although the exact argument isn’t correct.

Frozen produce is harvested at peak, frozen nearby, and then transported. The texture suffers, but in other respects this is far superior to the “fresh” produce you get, which has to survive transportation at room temperature. Whether you would prefer frozen depends on what you are getting and how you prepare it, but there are tons of scenarios where you should prefer frozen foods.

Certain foods are clear winners frozen, like peas, corn, spinach, if they are going to be cooked. If you’re making sauces, fillings, pies, etc from berries, frozen berries are your best bet. The non-frozen berries have to be shelf stable and the shelf stable ones don’t taste good. The good tasting berries keep well frozen.

Re: Americans are poorly served by their grocery stores

#327

Post by MisterBastahrd » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 6:08 AM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #309

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know perfectly well how to make a gravy from scratch. It's not hard, anyone can do it. Gravy is just flour, fat, stock, and seasoning. Cook it long enough without seasoning and you have a roux. Cook for a few minutes and add milk and you've got a white gravy. But for a brown gravy to be served with dinner, most people own one fridge/freezer. They aren't going to sit there and reduce chicken or beef broth to make st…

By all means, eat what you want to eat. No judgment. I was just trying to understand the difference between "dessert topping tomato sauce" snobbery and "gravy from a mysterious powder that is secretly mostly corn starch" hypothetical practicality. There seems to be a contradiction? Scratch gravy takes like 20% longer than envelope-of-mysterious-powder gravy, while good tomato sauce takes hours . Of course, you can ma…

It was specifically about the sugar content and how American tastes have morphed to expect those things. Good tomato sauce does not take hours unless you're trying to cook it in a skillet on a sidewalk in Arizona. Sunday sauce is a bit different, but that's because you're simmering meat in it.

Gravy is an entirely different animal. Yes, it's mostly flour and corn starch, but it's also not the star of the dish the way that tomato sauce is.

I don't know anybody in my family aside from my Gen X sister and millennial cousins who can't make gravy from scratch. My "Greatest Generation" grandmother in particular only cooked about 30-40 dishes, but she cooked them so regularly that she didn't need a cookbook, and they were never anything but great (except when she tried to feed me frozen pizza when I would stay over for the week. She'd throw American cheese and ham on top because she didn't believe it would be filling enough).

Re: Americans are poorly served by their grocery stores

#328

Post by davidgay » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 6:09 AM UTC

asiachick wrote: post #236

DubiousPusher wrote: post #172

I grew up in Montana so I am probably one of the few millennial Americans that probably recalls what life is like before supermarkets. They were just becoming a thing there as I was growing up. (Very, What's Eating Gilbert Grape.) We had an IGA in the small town I grew up in. The fresh food options there were borderline Soviet. We went to a butcher to get our meat when we didn't have meat from hunting. We got produce…

I'm sure supermarkets now are better than what you grew up with in Montana but I have the opposite experience. I'm in SF, we supposedly have good produce, farmer's markets, and big supermarkets with lots of selection. But they pale in comparison to what I'm used to from Japan and France. The bread here in SF is horrid and that includes that massively over rated Tartine, not to mention how bad the baked products are a…

> The produce selection is 1/3rd

You clearly haven't been to Berkeley Bowl (not very far from SF...). Or Monterey Market (also in Berkeley).

> There's 1/6th the selection of cheese.

Strangely, also in Berkeley, https://cheeseboardcollective.coop/bakery-cheese/cheese-shop... - it's been Covided alas, but the photo there should give you an idea.

But some of your items, especially the pâté are definitely in the category of "Why isn't this just like at home?", which you really shouldn't use as a measure of quality.

Re: Americans are poorly served by their grocery stores

#329

Post by bpye » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 6:09 AM UTC

wikibob wrote: post #294

jandrewrogers wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this generalizes, it really depends on where you live in the US. I work in Europe and know many US expats there, so this is something we talk about. The consensus has been that the quality and diversity of fresh foods in the US these days is frequently superior in many categories at the median, though notably worse in others. The paucity of good produce is noticeable everywhere, for example, a fraction…

Strongly strongly disagree. The average produce, meat, cured meat, and seafood in the western EU is vastly superior to the average available in the USA. Bread is especially disgusting in the US compared to EU.

I sadly have a similar experience in Canada. Whilst I have found products here that are good in most categories, and produce is generally fine, I find I have to be more selective with meat, seafood and especially baked goods and cheese.

Re: Americans are poorly served by their grocery stores

#330

Post by bpye » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 6:12 AM UTC

laurencerowe wrote: post #231

fredley wrote: post #32

UK supermarkets are crap, and have got noticeably crapper in recent years. At even large mid-tier supermarkets you will find a paltry range of fruit and veg, and a maeger selection of almost entirely prepackaged meat and fish. I have noticed many things are routinely out of stock and it can be a lottery shopping for a specific recipe. I recently visited Portugal, and in a small city supermarket there was a bakery, me…

Honestly I miss U.K. supermarkets now I live in the US. (I moved before Brexit so things are probably much worse there now.) Tesco somehow always managed to have what I needed but my local Safeway in SF frequently has empty shelves (predating the pandemic.) And unless you go to Trader Joe’s (which is missing a bunch of other stuff) there’re no nice freshly preprepared meals available.

I moved from the UK to Canada and still miss UK supermarkets to a degree. That said, I went back for ~1 month last summer and often ended up needing to go to multiple supermarkets to find basic things such as chicken breasts... If Brexit isn't the cause I'd be very surprised.