Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date • Hacker News Board

Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date

#321

Post by cf141q5325 » Sat, Mar 19, 2022, 2:55 AM UTC

brokensegue wrote: post #320

cf141q5325 wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ivermectin is off patent and extremely cheap, there is zero problem producing enough. And if i want to waste a few cents on a few tablets, thats my prerogative. The risk is also far below aspirin. As to what you consider an acceptable placebo, why should anyone care? As long as we are all consenting adults, i would say mind your own business, would you? Knowing that the more you try bossing people around, the more li…

we require prescriptions for drugs for a reason. medicine should be evidence based. I am also upset that pharmacies sell homeopathic remedies. people selling snake oil hurt society and should be forced out. further there were supply problems with ivermectin when only a small portion of the population was trying to take it. a clinical trial on ivermectin was halted due to supply issues. imagine if it were recommended…

The supply issues in the UK were nonsense. It was available in the market. Producing more would also not have been a problem.

You also skipped over the the part of your opinion being not reason enough to start societal conflict. I do sympathies with your views, however any such behavior comes with a cost. And looking around we cant really afford more conflict over trivial things. Your feelings might not be important enough to add to the problem with no clear harm at stake.

Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date

#322

Post by brokensegue » Sat, Mar 19, 2022, 3:15 AM UTC

cf141q5325 wrote: post #321

brokensegue wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we require prescriptions for drugs for a reason. medicine should be evidence based. I am also upset that pharmacies sell homeopathic remedies. people selling snake oil hurt society and should be forced out. further there were supply problems with ivermectin when only a small portion of the population was trying to take it. a clinical trial on ivermectin was halted due to supply issues. imagine if it were recommended…

The supply issues in the UK were nonsense. It was available in the market. Producing more would also not have been a problem. You also skipped over the the part of your opinion being not reason enough to start societal conflict. I do sympathies with your views, however any such behavior comes with a cost. And looking around we cant really afford more conflict over trivial things. Your feelings might not be important…

> You also skipped over the the part of your opinion being not reason enough to start societal conflict

this is just a nonsensical argument. should we not push back against flat earthers because "what harm are they causing"? we should strive for an evidence based intelligent society. when morons push drugs without sufficient evidence the press and society at large should push back. too bad if Trump's and Joe Rogan's feelings are hurt.

> Producing more would also not have been a problem

It took months to get production of masks to sufficient levels.

Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date

#323

Post by roenxi » Sat, Mar 19, 2022, 3:24 AM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #318

roenxi wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Well, ok, but that is a different argument. You said that a pharmacist could refuse a customer in cases such as when the medicine caused harm. Is there any evidence that this medicine caused harm? We all know a bunch of people said not to take it, that is not something anyone is going to argue about. 3. So why are pharmacists immune to being snake oil salesmen but perfectly qualified doctors giving out prescriptio…

1. A pharmacist might justifiably believe giving a medication to someone when the FDA and CDC have explicitly said not to is a form of doing harm; that they've got good reason to make the recommendation. They, like medical doctors, are empowered to make judgement calls. 3. Strawman. I don't doubt that there are ivermectin-flogging pharmacists just like there are ivermectin-flogging doctors. Your question was "why is…

1. They certainly might, that is why I'm typing all these questionmarks. What is the justification for why it might cause harm?

Overruling a doctor's prescribed treatment is a pretty extreme action. Drawing a rough parallel to abortion, I can see how they might choose not to carry Ivermectin and call it a day. But if they are selectively not filling prescriptions for political reasons, that is outrageous. There is no evidence that Ivermectin will cause patients harm. If they then took horse paste, there is evidence that the pharmacists stubbornness is causing more harm. It is better for people to take drugs under the supervision of a doctor.

3. You've had 2 goes at answering the question and you are struggling to even take a credible guess at how the prescription might have caused harm. And we know a doctor might think it is a fine thing to prescribe speculatively. But I think you have more problems than just that - it looks a lot like you're comfortable with the idea that a pharmacist can overrule a doctor and a patient based on gut feel and no evidence. Literally no evidence, given your responses so far. Are you really comfortable with that crazy stance? You don't think it is reasonable that patients trust and follow their doctors advice?

4. So in this specific case, do you think that the pharmacist suspected an interaction? Because I feel pretty confident you'd come off the worse if we check, but I'll admit I still haven't. The filling of Ivermectin scripts somehow became a political rather than a medical issue and this pharmacist is probably acting politically.

Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date

#324

Post by cf141q5325 » Sat, Mar 19, 2022, 4:10 AM UTC

brokensegue wrote: post #322

cf141q5325 wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The supply issues in the UK were nonsense. It was available in the market. Producing more would also not have been a problem. You also skipped over the the part of your opinion being not reason enough to start societal conflict. I do sympathies with your views, however any such behavior comes with a cost. And looking around we cant really afford more conflict over trivial things. Your feelings might not be important…

> You also skipped over the the part of your opinion being not reason enough to start societal conflict this is just a nonsensical argument. should we not push back against flat earthers because "what harm are they causing"? we should strive for an evidence based intelligent society. when morons push drugs without sufficient evidence the press and society at large should push back. too bad if Trump's and Joe Rogan's…

That Ivermectin is somewhat a scares resource is nonsense, there were rather large countries that gave it out like candy with no problems. I can not overstate how cheap and easy to produce it is, quite different from masks. I would also be very doubtful many people would use an obvious placebo.

Its also far from a nonsensical argument. This isnt about vocalizing your opinion and communicating facts but forcing the behavior of other people without an actual harm at stake. Those are two very different things. You also shouldnt force flat earthers on ship trips around the world just because they annoy you. As they will interpret that as a hostile action on your part and react in kind.

Lets make the argument practical. Even with zero effect, I believe given enough motivation i could convince myself that Ivermectin has some sort of effect. Which would very likely induce a placebo effect. For something where there is zero home treatment options which makes it the best option available to me since i wont be able to convince myself of the benefits of homeopathics. All with neglect-able personal risk and societal impact. Differently put, a lot of what i do has higher risk and higher negative societal impact for zero upside as well.

A placebo you however want to prevent me from acquiring because it annoys you. I do believe we can get most problems solved through a reasonable discussion, impact analysis, cost benefit analysis and last but not least cooperation. But you seem to think your feelings allow you to force me to do stuff that leaves me at a disadvantage (lack of a placebo) for no reason what so ever.

This leaves me with the realization, that you are not interested in cooperation. Game theory tells me to stop cooperating immediately till you learned your lesson. Why shouldnt i? Because you get angry and start fantasying about more force?

Unrelated how right you feel on this, i do not believe that we can get anywhere as a species if everyone acted as you do. At the end of the day, forcing people has a cost and creates a reaction. Or differently put, you cant fix stupidity by force. Especially since you might overestimate your ability to identify stupid.

Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date

#325

Post by the_af » Sat, Mar 19, 2022, 4:15 AM UTC

bb88 wrote: post #307

the_af wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's ironic as those who don't trust vaccines seem to flock to the medical advice of those without any training. This is a trend I've observed in proponents of New Age alternative "medicine", way before COVID. They can simultaneously believe that Western medicine is "unproven" or a "hoax", and that doctors are "untrustworthy" and "big pharma" wants you to buy unproven stuff, and no amount of qualifications will con…

There's a lot of blame to go around here that doesn't only belong in the New Age alternative medicine cult. (Crystals and such are clearly fraudulent) Last I checked colloidal silver was being sold by a christian evangelist named Jim Bakker. Then there's chiropractors. Then there was the anti-vaxxers. Then the "vitamins will cure anything under the sun." Then there was things like "all-herbal fen phen" and other herb…

Agreed it's not exclusive to New Age beliefs, though my point wasn't exactly about the specific delusions ("I can cure anything with this diluted tincture of petals") but about the completely irrational standards of proof.

They cannot find a way to trust the opinion of professionals ("they are lying", "they pay them to say so", "the evidence is faked", "they want to control us", "this has toxic stuff they won't tell you about") but if the nice woman at the grocery store tells them her niece went to a healer who has a "holistic" method of curing migrane/the flu/covid/cancer then suddenly it's "it must work, don't be narrow minded!".

I would understand if they were always mistrustful of everything: the government, big pharma, the woman at the grocery store, anecdotes from coworkers. But no, their mistrust is weirdly selective.

Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date

#326

Post by FeepingCreature » Sat, Mar 19, 2022, 5:43 AM UTC

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #155

moistofreason wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many major pharmacies in the US refused to fill prescriptions for off-label use of IVM, due to the media freak out about it… Some people decided to go to farm supply stores and take the sterile bovine injectable form of IVM orally. This whole situation would not have happened if social media, YouTube, and major news outlets didn’t make such a stink about using a drug. It has virtually no negative side-effects, over 4…

Just because it's safe doesn't mean they should hand it out like candy to anyone who wants it.

That is literally what it means. Sorry, since when do we refuse to sell people things that are safe, on the basis that we've decided they shouldn't ought to want it?

Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date

#327

Post by FeepingCreature » Sat, Mar 19, 2022, 5:46 AM UTC

stjohnswarts wrote: post #258

tux1968 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The misunderstandings around this drug stem from misunderstandings of basic statistics and the scientific method. This is why you shouldn't get your medical advice from Joe Rogan. You're 100% correct, of course. But the prevalent MSM response, of calling it horse medicine, was equally damaging. Since it is a well known, effective, and respected medicine used in humans, this characterization as "horse paste" made it…

It isn't “equally damaging”. It was a social attempt to embarrass those who were pursing horse medicine for something it was absolutely never evaluated for and marked as credible medicine for covid. It was the right's attempt (at least in the USA) to cross their fingers and hope that the left was wrong. They are essentially antiscience but wanted to use a medicine that only came about because of science. Their mental…

And it backfired.

Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date

#328

Post by FeepingCreature » Sat, Mar 19, 2022, 5:49 AM UTC

SamBam wrote: post #207

gadders wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The extreme pushback started when Donald Trump mentioned it.

I think that's right but not complete. I think the biggest pushback came from the notion that a large segment of the population appeared to be against the scientific consensus on Covid, contemptuous about risk mitigation strategies, skeptical/fear-mongering about the vaccines, and pushing conspiracy theories, and then these were the who turned around and said there's a great drug that works miracles against Covid and…

Yeah but the problem is that every time this happens, the inevitable pushback ends up validating all their fears, whether or not the secret weapon is real. The whole system evolves towards bipolarity, where things that split society into two halves are amplified. That's why all the moderates only see extremists on the other side.

Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date

#329

Post by brokensegue » Sat, Mar 19, 2022, 6:05 AM UTC

cf141q5325 wrote: post #324

brokensegue wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You also skipped over the the part of your opinion being not reason enough to start societal conflict this is just a nonsensical argument. should we not push back against flat earthers because "what harm are they causing"? we should strive for an evidence based intelligent society. when morons push drugs without sufficient evidence the press and society at large should push back. too bad if Trump's and Joe Rogan's…

That Ivermectin is somewhat a scares resource is nonsense, there were rather large countries that gave it out like candy with no problems. I can not overstate how cheap and easy to produce it is, quite different from masks. I would also be very doubtful many people would use an obvious placebo. Its also far from a nonsensical argument. This isnt about vocalizing your opinion and communicating facts but forcing the be…

> This isnt about vocalizing your opinion and communicating facts but forcing the behavior of other people without an actual harm at stake

No force was applied to ivermectin proponents. I don't know what you think I'm proposing. We merely enforced the sensible existing rules that drugs should be prescribed only when there is evidence they work.

The ivermectin proponents are generally anti vaccine. People took ivermectin as a substitute for the vaccine. In that way ivermectin hurt public health.

Your placebo argument is also an argument against the entire drug testing/approval process. It's just the same tired libertarianism argument with a rationalist paint job

> This leaves me with the realization, that you are not interested in cooperation

I have no idea what you're going on about.

Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date

#330

Post by WaxedChewbacca » Sat, Mar 19, 2022, 6:32 AM UTC

m-p-3 wrote: post #260

WaxedChewbacca wrote: post #4

Meanwhile, back in reality, ivermectin is associated with 70%-ish reductions in hospitalization and death. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz4adJXLHgA

In countries where a parasitic infection is common and is a COVID-19 co-morbidity.

No post body was provided.