Live data from Hacker News

World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

reuters.com

321–330 of 420 posts

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#321
post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, if I have to eat an animal, I'd much rather focus first and foremost on eating the creature that has been killed in as painless, immediate and stressless a way as possible. If choosing between meat options that all have been relatively humanely slaughtered, then I might start to look at other factors such as intelligence or environmental impact of a particular species being raised for food.

That seems like a reasonable heuristic and I understand why someone might feel drawn to put a greater inherent value on intelligent species on an emotional level, but I just don't see the relevance of intelligence in and of itself in terms of ethics.

The problem is harming sentient, conscious creatures. No consciousness, no problem. More consciousness, more problem. Intelligence is not the same as consciousness, but they are highly correlated.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#322
post #85
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I shall instruct my octopodal mates to avoid hot baths and go for the incineration option instead. This is a tricky one. Where do you draw the line as an omnivore?

If its been distributed here, prepped, and offered for sale, I might as well eat it since its there anyhow. Better conditions for animals will come from legislation and not consumer choices.

Yep. And this oil has been refined already, might as well burn it now. That plane will fly with or without me in it. /s

Except the providers actually adjust to demand. If the products are not sold, they will make less of them.

I can't remember the name of this particular fallacy.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#323
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a way, it applies to dogs too. I have the privilege of giving my dog a way out of pain: I can put them down. That decision rests with me, and ultimately, one day, I will have to make it. I may choose every day to feed my dog the best diet I can afford, I'll give her massages, I'll snuggle her, care for her when she's sick, but ultimately, one day, I know I will have the choice to spare her the pain of dying a pain…

One of my great regrets in life so far is shirking that responsibility and selfishly allowing a dog to last too long. I’ve learned from it and since had to make that decision again and actually made a decision this time but the guilt remains. It’s a dreadful responsibility.

You made a decision to give that animal the best life you could.

Note the "you could" part.

You did the best you could, and you obviously learned from your mistakes. Don't be hard on yourself, that's everyone else's job and they don't need the help.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#324

To me the most important questions are, does living a farm style life cause them undue distress and harm, and will they realize they are on a farm instead of just some weird octopus community. For example, the cows I own I can keep on my land and they are perfectly content to munch grass around the different pastures throughout the year as they are rotated, and have free clean shelter in the barn and free hay in the…

We will look back with astonishment at the sheer madness of killing animals and eating them.

There is not a single area in food production that future us won't look back with astonishment at the sheer madness. The amount of destruction and suffering that regular farming does with pesticides, herbicide, fertilizers, deforestation, water and air pollution is on a planet scale. It insane how much destruction we do just so a few people has the luxury to eat a few culturally selected fresh vegetables year round while still living in cities (and also throwing away most of the food). Most of the worlds biodiversity in insects are gone, as well as most of the world fresh water supplies and forests. Complete oceans, like the Baltic ocean, have been turned into a death trap for animals as a result of fertilizers, slowly killing fish and other animals through suffocation or starvation.

Here is hope that the future realize that the only ethical way to produce food is through methods that neither require land, fertilizers or fresh water. This is also the only way forward if the worlds populations will continue to increase.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#325

I used to do research at the Shedd Aquarium. After watching a particularly clever octopus defeat every attempt to prevent him leaving his enclosure at night, I am absolutely confident that, just like certain aquatic mammals such as Orca whales, that we only devalue their intelligence because they were unfortunate enough to not be in a situation where they could develop significant tool use and the cultural artifacts…

I totally get where you are coming from, but I want to discuss one thing you mentioned.

You decided to stop eating octopus, because they're very smart animals. Which is understandable to me. But why do you decide what animals to eat, based on how intelligent they seem to us? If we turn that argument around, it's okay to eat an animal if its 'dumb'. Why is that so?

To show my perspective, I am becoming more vegetarian the more time passes, because I just can't justify anymore how we treat animals which are meant for comsumption - Forcefully impregnating them, taking their kids away, keeping them in cages yada yada yada. Which means that for me it does not matter how subjectively or objectively intelligent an animal is, same as how I don't treat humans based on their intelligence. Mostly. Of course, if I have to explain something to another human, my explanation will vary on how intelligent they seem to me. But I think you know what I mean :)

As far as I know, pigs are extremely intelligent. Maybe not on the level of an octopus, but still. So, do you eat pig?

And to end, I am not trying to accuse you of any wrongdoing or whatever, its just very interesting to me and I want to talk about it.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#326

It was always possible for me to perceive sentience, feelings and emotions from a variety of beings, I don't understand why grown adults are just reaching a cognitive maturity to notice that and making that a line in the sand on whether they will farm/consume a being based on that. These seem to be two separate things to me? Can someone shed light on both: a) why these are related concepts b) your journey to cognitiv…

In case it wasn't obvious the studies and this article is being written by people in the West who do not consume octopus. These articles almost always seem to derive to us-vs-them narrative, the idea that the West is somehow the forefront of moral novelty and the rest of the world is behind. When the irony is that the same random argument applied towards Octopus can be done on just about any sentient beings like cow…

I'm sorry dude, but you're the only one here talking about us-vs-them and about Asia, the West or whatever.

The article is about a farm in Spain in a region well known for it's octopus dishes. Not everything has to be about geopolitical ideologies.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#327
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trying to cut meats out of my diet slowly. All seafood was easy as I was never that into it. Pig meat on the other hand... Bacon, Ham, Pork, etc. I knew that it had to go. So I started with that. Currently I'm an opportunitarian. Chicken is the meat of choice if I can't handle the vegetarian option, otherwise beef. But pig and all seafood is gone from my diet. My hope is that plant-based or cultured meat improves…

In our case we have to avoid gluten, which means avoiding wheats. Most vegetarian dishes contain wheat in some form. So far I haven’t been able to create a week menu with sufficient nutrients without meat or gluten. It would mean taking supplements. Not sure whether I can stomach the hit to enjoying food it would entail.

Maize, rice, potatoes, sweat potatoes, bananas are among the alternative sources that can provide as much starch as wheat, but without any gluten.

I do not have gluten intolerance, but I like better the sources of starch mentioned above, so there are decades since I have last eaten wheat or any of its relatives that contain gluten.

However, I eat only food that I prepare myself from raw ingredients, so I can control precisely its composition. Therefore I can easily avoid what I do not want, e.g. wheat, sugar or undesirable fat sources.

While avoiding gluten is easy, completely avoiding meat is much more difficult, because unlike some kinds of meat, e.g. turkey meat, which are almost pure protein, so you can easily make a menu with a small quantity of meat that is enough to cover your daily needs, covering the same needs with vegetable protein is difficult.

The same small quantity of protein requires either a much larger quantity of vegetables with high protein content and mixed from at least 2 different kinds with complementary amino-acid profile, which will provide much more calories than meat, so to compensate you will have to eat less of other vegetables that you might like more, or you might want to replace meat with vegetable protein extracts, but those are much more expensive than meat and I would not trust their producers to use the best extraction procedures instead of using the cheapest extraction methods.

For now, I do not have enough time and money to eat completely vegan food, so I make 2 exceptions.

My daily menus include 160 g of turkey meat and a spoon of fish oil.

Because these 2 items cover the required daily intake for everything that is hard to get from completely vegan food, I am free to choose the rest of the food from a large variety of strictly non-animal sources.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#328
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I did not eat octopus prior to this but I became firmly in support of encouraging everyone to avoid eating octopus and related creatures after this experience. Not only do I think they're immensely intelligent animals, I am firmly convinced that this particular specimen was smarter than a number of humans that I have met. Where I live octopus is a very popular food, representative of our gastronomy. I love everythi…

I'm trying to cut meats out of my diet slowly. All seafood was easy as I was never that into it. Pig meat on the other hand... Bacon, Ham, Pork, etc. I knew that it had to go. So I started with that. Currently I'm an opportunitarian. Chicken is the meat of choice if I can't handle the vegetarian option, otherwise beef. But pig and all seafood is gone from my diet. My hope is that plant-based or cultured meat improves…

I'm vegan, I love it when people to take this approach. I went through the same process: I eliminated red meat first, then chicken, then fish, hung out for a while as vegetarian, then dropped honey/dairy, and then (hardest step) cheese before finally making the jump to full veganism. Currently trying to reduce cocoa, though I haven't completely eliminated it yet.

Part of what I like about people taking the more gradual approach is that I think they're much less likely to hit a wall and then go back to eating everything. Instead, every step of the process starts from a position of security/safety, and it ends up looking more like a person saying, "I'm comfortable not eating X, maybe I could also be comfortable not eating Y." And I think that makes things a lot less intimidating, and I think it makes it easier to build a different palete, and I think it means that each step is something that's small and surmountable rather than forcing you to build a substitute for every single food at once.

One thing I did as even a micro-step for some categories like dairy was to allow myself to order certain food at a restaurant but not buy it at a grocery store. You could also do the opposite -- depending on where you live, going vegetarian/vegan at restaurants is a good way of figuring out what alternative foods exist and what options you have for meat/dairy replacements.

And honestly, I also think this approach lines up somewhat well with veganism's overall philosophy, which is not about being in a position of moral superiority or about being perfect, it's about reducing harm. Going vegan doesn't mean none of your consumption contributes to suffering, it just reduces that number a bit. And the gradual process (on top of being (imo) easier to do and being less likely to result in backsliding to older habits) also kind of forces the person to live for a while in an uncomfortable place where they're trying to do better and aren't necessarily happy with their efforts or where they currently are. Again opinion me, but I think that's a good emotion for people to get used to if they become vegan; it guards against some of the tendency towards self-importance or pride that gets associated with veganism sometimes. I think it's good to be in a mindset of "X causes suffering, and independent of any other factor do I personally need to do X?"

Of course I'm hoping people go further than just reducing meat consumption, and I do hope that people don't take one step and say, "that's good enough, I don't need to ever think about this again." I also encourage taking tangible steps where you completely cut a food out rather than just reduce it, because "reducing" is a really fuzzy word that is easy to backslide on, and eliminating a food from a diet is a lot more tangible. But even if someone doesn't go any further or take those more tangible steps, reducing is still better than nothing. And I just think -- start with reducing, and see what happens. If you find out you can reduce, then maybe you can stretch a bit further and full-on eliminate that specific animal product, and then maybe you can stretch a bit further again and repeat the process with something else.

You get used to just looking around creatively at your life to see if there are small improvements to your consumption habits you can make, and then afterwards looking around again to see if there are new improvements you can make. I make vegan meals and enjoy certain vegetables now that I would not have had either the knowledge to pull off or the palete to enjoy when I started reducing meat. I think back to when I was getting rid of beef/pork, and there are literally foods that I didn't like back then that are now solid meat substitutes for me.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#330

It was always possible for me to perceive sentience, feelings and emotions from a variety of beings, I don't understand why grown adults are just reaching a cognitive maturity to notice that and making that a line in the sand on whether they will farm/consume a being based on that. These seem to be two separate things to me? Can someone shed light on both: a) why these are related concepts b) your journey to cognitiv…

> making that a line in the sand on whether they will farm/consume a being based on that.

But everyone is drawing that line somewhere, mostly unconsciously. Surely nobody minds eating bacteria and fungi (else you couldn't live), but most people wouldn't eat a dog - so there is a line. But where? (in this case, the somewhat arbitrary definition of sentience, I guess)

Post reply on HN