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Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

royalsociety.org

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Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#321
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, let's look at a scenario. If a board member of a powerful pharmaceutical company was also a chief executive at a news organization responsible for "fact-checking" claims about that company's medicines, would it be inappropriate to wonder about financial incentives?

You seem to only be looking at the surface of this issue. I agree that it is appropriate to be concerned about conflict of interest, but what happens when you take it one step further beyond your comment? I decide to "do my own research" and plug the drug's name into Google. The top site that comes up is the same news organization's fact check because no one else has a financial incentive to investigate this issue an…

I’d be willing to bet that most people with the gall to do their own research will look beyond the first result that appears on the SERP...

It’s fundamentally an epistemological question: what is the ontological basis for thinking we know something?

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have it backwards. Discussing controversial issues in the clear minimizes conspiracy theories (no, it doesn't completely eliminate them). The volume of conspiracy theories was driven up precisely because our epistemological institutions (e.g., media, academy, etc) abandoned the pursuits of objectivity and neutrality. To get back to a semi-rational state of affairs, we need to get the ideology out of our instituti…

Do you think there would be less moon landing deniers if the media talked about it earnestly? If legitimate scientific journals published "research"? Honest question.

Moon landing deniers won't read, nevermind believe, legitimate scientific journal investigations. What's needed is Buzzfeed-esque, at that level of writing, top ten reasons why moon landing hoaxers are wrong.

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#323

Just throwing my 2c into the well, as someone who used to be highly "pro-science" but lost confidence in much of academia and the validity of scientific research in general after starting a PhD and seeing how the sausage is made. The biggest problem science is facing is not an external threat from a rabble of ignorant science deniers, but the complete degradation of quality within the scientific institutions themselv…

“I played in the local soccer club once, and can now confidently tell you that every professional athlete is an alcoholic. “

Or, such narratives are created, just as narratives that all politicians are corrupt, that meritocracy is wrong, as an attempt to weaken western democracies.

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#324

Just throwing my 2c into the well, as someone who used to be highly "pro-science" but lost confidence in much of academia and the validity of scientific research in general after starting a PhD and seeing how the sausage is made. The biggest problem science is facing is not an external threat from a rabble of ignorant science deniers, but the complete degradation of quality within the scientific institutions themselv…

> The fact remains that if one were to assume that every single scientific discovery of the last > 25 years was complete bullshit, they'd be right more often than they were wrong.

This is not a fact, it's a claim (may even by a hyperbole, we don't know for sure). But even at that, you're overlooking a very important perspective: there are more important and less important discoveries (results) and thus the effect of them being wrong should also be weighted. I'd also be inclined to think that the more important ones are scrutinized more and thus are likely to be right more often.

The great and unique thing with science, not ignoring the issues you've raised, is that it can correct itself. And it's better at it than everyday people are. So yep, the issues mentioned by you and others should be corrected (and some of these, like the replication issues and the publication bias, etc. are well known which means that I'm sure they are being worked on). But the general public also has to learn that science is still our best chance to understand reality.

Because most science (and thus reality) deniers usually just look at it as if it was a simple choice between "do I believe them or not" as in "do I let myself be lied to/mislead or not". Whereas the real choice is who do I rather believe? The science guy or myself (without knowing much about anything, basically). Which will give me the better results? Because when I have to make a decision (e.g. vaccinate or not) then it will be a decision between these too. (Just like "vaccinate or not" is really a decision of "contract the virus with or without being pre-immunized by the vaccine". And not "do I want to risk the side effects or not".)

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#325

Just throwing my 2c into the well, as someone who used to be highly "pro-science" but lost confidence in much of academia and the validity of scientific research in general after starting a PhD and seeing how the sausage is made. The biggest problem science is facing is not an external threat from a rabble of ignorant science deniers, but the complete degradation of quality within the scientific institutions themselv…

Perhaps you are imagining less imperfect, less egotistical, less insecure scientists in a past Golden Age of Science. I for one have stopped believing such an era ever existed, or will ever exist. But I continue to believe that the scientific process will continue to serve humanity well despite the terrible flaws of us humans attempting to apply it. Yes, I believe in the scientific process , that it will self-correct, that the attacks by bad actors and self-deluded participants will come out in the wash.

As a doctoral student I had a paper rejected because I didn't toe the dogmatic line of one prestigious reviewer (seriously, the review feedback lacked only the word "dogma"). Terrible, right? But this is a common theme over centuries as near as I can tell, and here we are, living in a magnificent future!

We will continue to benefit from the scientific process, despite all our individual flaws, and despite how easily we each fool ourselves (and sometimes others).

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best diet is the one eaten for 1000s of years by your ancestors

Because they all lived long healthy lives I'm sure /s

Of course some of us did a better job than others, but enough lived that Humanity (collectively singular) is still here, and to me it seems the only way for anyone to learn anything is via the negative image formed by all the ideas that didn’t work.

Sorry I know this sounds a little woo-woo fruity, but that’s Humanity’s godlike power to transcend the limitations of our bodies’ material dimension where energy can’t be created or destroyed.

Collectively we’re like a blockchain holding a mirror-image dimension of all the best ideas just by virtue of the other nodes not making it, growing over time as our new embodiments get to start at what from their point of view is “zero” despite being unknowably old and full of patches and bug fixes. Storage and retrieval are the same operation!

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#327
post #32

The issue that plagues us is a lack of trust in long-standing societal authorities. We can't follow the entire scientific proof chain for every piece of information we encounter, because we don't have time. So we rely on authority to some extent, whether that be peer review, government, independent bodies, etc. We need to be able to trust that these bodies are telling us the truth and aren't seeking to mislead us. Be…

>The issue that plagues us is a lack of trust in long-standing societal authorities. What caused that trust to be lost? Is it something they did?

Eg, a doctor at a jail tested Covid treatments on inmates to see if it helped. That's a ground-shaking loss of trust! Where that's one crazy doctor and an isolated case, it's hard for the disenfranchised not to generalize to the rest of the medical establishment.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/arkansas-inmates-ivermectin-fed...

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#328
Nov 2021, Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS), Washington, DC, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8651604/

> For decades, corporate undermining of scientific consensus has eroded the scientific process worldwide. Guardrails for protecting science-informed processes, from peer review to regulatory decision making, have suffered sustained attacks, damaging public trust in the scientific enterprise and its aim to serve the public good. Government efforts to address corporate attacks have been inadequate. Researchers have cataloged corporate malfeasance that harms people’s health across diverse industries. Well-known cases, like the tobacco industry’s efforts to downplay the dangers of smoking, are representative of transnational industries, rather than unique. This contribution schematizes industry tactics to distort, delay, or distract the public from instituting measures that improve health—tactics that comprise the “disinformation playbook.” Using a United States policy lens, we outline steps the scientific community should take to shield science from corporate interference, through individual actions (by scientists, peer reviewers, and editors) and collective initiatives (by research institutions, grant organizations, professional associations, and regulatory agencies).

UCS Case studies: https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/disinformation-playbook

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a person working in science (long past PhD), I disagree. There are tons of problem in science: grant system, pressure to publish etc. Also everyone in science is still a person with standard people problems: ego, desire to be right, wanting recognition etc. Also some fields had more issues because of poor statistical methods etc. But the self-correcting nature of science is still its biggest redeeming feature. And…

You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them. In any case, you r…

Great choice of critic -- who has written many books about scientists commiting fraud because of their lust for grant money.

Too bad his criticism comes from fantasy, instead of facts.

And of course he's a climate change denier.

Re: Royal Society cautions against censorship of scientific misinformation online

#330
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The people in charge were given evidence, face much less risk, and it's their job to put a stop to it. That is an awfully authoritative statement to make based off what OP shared. But either way, this has been proven time and time again whether we are talking about simple corruption like OP mentioned or more serious forms of injustice. People will judge themselves based off motivations and others based off actions.…

> That is an awfully authoritative statement to make based off what OP shared. Which part do you disagree with? Maybe the 'much' on much less risk? 'given evidence' is true unless OP made op the story. (And even if OP made up the story then we're judging fictional people and the judgements are still valid.) I think 'less risk' goes part and parcel with being administration rather than someone lower rank reporting a p…

>'given evidence' is true unless OP made op the story.

OP never mentioned evidence. People just "knew" this person was a fraud but there was no mention of the actual evidence of fraud. The closest thing to evidence is that "their work was terrible" but that isn't evidence of fraud.

>I think 'less risk' goes part and parcel with being administration rather than someone lower rank reporting a problem.

We have no idea the risks involved. It would be highly embarrassing for a prestigious school and/or instructor to admit that they admitted a fraud into their program. Maybe this isn't even the first time this has happened to these people. Would you want to be the person know for repeatedly being duped by frauds? Maybe that would that ruin your reputation more than looking the other way and letting this person fail somewhere else where you would not be directly tied to their downfall. It is also incredibly risky to punish this person without hard evidence as that can lead to a lawsuit.

These are not meant to be definitive statements. They are just hypothetical that show how we can't judge people's motivations without knowing a lot more about the situation.

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