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Web3 and crypto skepticism is growing and people are finally starting to listen

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Re: Web3 and crypto skepticism is growing and people are finally starting to listen

#321

Post by jakelazaroff »

fallingknife wrote: post #220
lkrubner wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"no evidence of this" is too strong of a claim. The folks who argue that fiat currency is dead, or should be dead, are implying they want a world where fiat currency disappears and then cryptocurrency emerges as the replacement. In that scenario, it is correct to say that some people are trying to force crypto on the rest of the world.

That's like saying people who said that the telegraph is dead, and will be replaced by the telephone, were trying to force telephones on people.

Crypto people aren't neutral observers simply predicting it will replace fiat, though. They are actively working to make that true. This is not an inevitable future for our society; if it happens, it will be because of activism from powerful people who stand to benefit.

Re: Web3 and crypto skepticism is growing and people are finally starting to listen

#322

Post by cmh89 »

ravenstine wrote: post #208
axg11 wrote: post #60

The relentless number of anti-crypto and anti-web3 articles on HN is tiring. Nobody is forcing anyone to partake in this new technology. Skepticism is healthy, but criticism without being constructive is not. There are clearly _some_ novel ideas in the crypto space, even if you think the state of the community today is not healthy. Thousands of teams are exploring ideas on many different fronts (e.g. L1s, L2s, NFTs).…

That's what really bums me out. Both pro-crypto and anti-crypto have become such cults that even as a curious person it's hard to make sense of anything anymore. No matter what side you're on, there's little room for reason or middle-ground. Yeah, there's problems with cryptocurrency remaining to be solved. Yes, there's shenanigans and scams. Yes, it's not great for the environment (and I cannot wait for a smartass t…

>That's what really bums me out. Both pro-crypto and anti-crypto have become such cults that even as a curious person it's hard to make sense of anything anymore. No matter what side you're on, there's little room for reason or middle-ground.

Not every topic has middle-ground though. Things can be overwhelmingly negative or positive. I've been following BTC passively since 2011 and I've seen the messaging change from "It's going to revolutionize transactions" to "Its a great store of value!". It's no closer to reaching widespread adoption as a currency than it was in 2011 because it doesn't function well as a currency. If its not a currency then what is it and why should people want it?

>Yet I'm glad that Bitcoin and other coins exist; in an increasingly authoritarian world, such things can be a last resort for those who become "depersoned", and I suspect that one day I'll be depersoned. And if there comes a point where cryptocurrency becomes so perfect that the banks can't compete, then what's there to complain about?

It would be very very very bad for your average person for the government to not have control of the monetary supply. The actual risk of the government "deperson"-ing someone is nearly zero, why would they? I feel like this is a classic crypto argument though. Crypto is good because it might solve some abstract problem that doesn't actually exist.

>Unfortunately, countless hordes looking to get rich quick have latched on to these things because they're so accessible to anyone with too much time on their hands. The tired word "blockchain" is so abused that upon hearing it I have sadness in me. There's nothing particularly revolutionary about blockchains. A blockchain without a consensus algorithm won't amount to much, but you can have consensus algorithms without necessarily having a blockchain. But blockchain sounds more mysterious to the average person, thus it's the buzzword of favor. You don't even need to know what a blockchain actually is. Just say the word blockchain and you'll be one of the cool people!

This has been crypto since I started watching it. I'm not sure when you started counting but crypto has always had 'get-rich-quick' boosters pumping it up and selling wild fantasies about how crypto is going to change the world with blockchain/trust/decentralization. This pumping is the core of any other pyramid scheme.

>A lot of people on the other side of the coin (yuk yuk) don't even have the faintest clue of how cryptocurrencies work or how even traditional fiat currencies work.

Lots of people into crypto also don't understand how it works or how fiat currencies work.

>Effectively, he believed that the value of Bitcoin was entirely in people's perception. He didn't understand that there are a fixed number of Bitcoins, and that it wouldn't be easy to change that number without a majority of the nodes agreeing, and that there are practical reasons why some would want to use Bitcoin over fiat. If anything, fiat currency better fits his mental model. This is not uncommon, in my experience. Very few people actually read anything.

It IS entirely in peoples perception. Something being scarce doesn't give it inherent value. There is only a finite amount of my dirty underwear but I somehow don't see my used underwear becoming valuable.

Re: Web3 and crypto skepticism is growing and people are finally starting to listen

#323

Post by lui8906 »

schleck8 wrote: post #10

Serious question: What problem does web3 or decentralization fix? - Oligopoly of the hyperscalers -> rent server from small provider like ovh/hetzner/netcup (there is plenty). The reason AWS, Azure and GCP are so popular is because people don't care. - Privavy intrusions -> Adblocker/DNS Blocker/Turn off JS/Use browser settings This won't be fixed by web3, ad monetization and tracking won't magically stop. They exist…

> This won't be fixed by web3, ad monetization and tracking won't magically stop. They exist because there is a demand.

Saying it is this way because this is the way people want it strikes me as a bit fatalist. Is it this way because it's what "people" want or because there is no viable alternative?

Nothing is being "fixed" per se, an alternative vision of how things could be is being experimented with. Key tenets of this are trying to better align user and creator / provider incentives.

Re: Web3 and crypto skepticism is growing and people are finally starting to listen

#324

Post by rideontime »

intrasight wrote: post #307
rideontime wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crypto’s been around for a decade. What’s so special about the upcoming year?

Because it's not a crypto thing. It's a blockchain thing.

Blockchain’s been around for a decade. What’s so special about the upcoming year?

Re: Web3 and crypto skepticism is growing and people are finally starting to listen

#325

Post by haswell »

paulgb wrote: post #318
haswell wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Plenty of its advocates very clearly WANT to force people to partake though Advocates evangelize heavily, sure, but will you provide some examples of this? I keep track of the headlines in this space, but I'm not familiar with / haven't experienced what you're describing.

I mean, it's in the name itself - web3 makes it sound like it's the next evolution of the web that we'll all be using in a few years. I think that's part of why there's so much backlash from the tech community -- it feels like a small group of people (who largely haven't built much on the web besides React apps) have decided that they get to call what they're working on the new web, even though it's currently mostly…

There’s a pretty big difference between “this project is named poorly and isn’t ready for prime time” and “advocates want to force people to use it”.

Don’t get me wrong - I share plenty of the same concerns others have shared throughout this thread, and tend to think “web3” is not a good thing to call this, but don’t see the “by force” claim as valid at this point.

Plenty of apps/projects brand themselves as the next coming/generation/evolution/whatever. Only adoption will tell us if they’re right.

Re: Web3 and crypto skepticism is growing and people are finally starting to listen

#326

Post by antonber »

2fast4you wrote: post #306
antonber wrote: post #298

I am confident that people's concerns about crypto's impact on the environment is simply jealousy masked by virtue. What they are saying when they say "ban crypto" is actually - let's bankrupt these bastards who made all this money off crypto. Jealousy is a powerful force.

Is the environmental impact not real or you just don't care?

First, it assumes crypto is "stuck in time" and not evolving. Proof-of-Stake + Layer 2s are orders of magnitude more efficient. Like any new tech, it gets more efficient over time.

Second, there's a distinction between energy usage and carbon emissions. Energy usage with zero carbon emissions is not bad for the environment. Bitcoin mining is perfect for carbon neutral energy sources because it can be mined anywhere, which is why Bitcoin mining energy sources are between 39% and 73% carbon neutral and growing [1].

Third, I think there is real value in a widely-used currency that is not centrally controlled. There is some cost to do this, manifest in the form of energy consumption. The fiat banking system also consumes substantial energy, and I would be curious to see a complete comparison.

In general, I get a sentiment of "it's ridiculous all these people got rich" followed by "there's a reason to justify my outrage" and, without further research, calls to ban an entire technology.

[1] https://hbr.org/2021/05/how-much-energy-does-bitcoin-actuall...

Re: Web3 and crypto skepticism is growing and people are finally starting to listen

#327

Post by ravenstine »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #285
ravenstine wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those people are probably going to be tricked anyway. Many things in society are tricks. Google is a trick. Self-help is a trick. Fast food is a trick. MLM is a trick. Political ideologies are tricks. Everyone wants to be lied to, or rather everyone wants to believe in something, and they'll throw away their money just to maintain that belief. While aspects of the world of cryptocurrency are tricks, it's hardly uniqu…

I don't know what you're trying to say here. Fast food is a trick? Does it not prevent me from starving? It seems like you're saying something like "stop trying to prevent people from being scammed, because reasons." What are those reasons? If I see someone trying to scam others, why shouldn't I warn those people?

Fast food is a trick because it is highly marked up and designed to be addictive moreso than most healthful meals. Yes, there is trickery in fast food and snack foods in general, and if you don't believe that, there's plenty of material on how the food industry and really the system in general have used the institution of fast food to keep people poor and sick. This isn't to say that everyone in fast food, even those in its upper echelons, are acutely aware of this, but discounting the involvement of conscious thought, it is a manifestation of modernity that developed to trick minds.

> stop trying to prevent people from being scammed, because reasons

No, that's not what I'm saying, at least in your brutal interpretation.

Should society allow anyone to be scammed? My answer to that question is a clear no, especially when it comes to fraud. Society functions orders of magnitude better with a level of self-control than it would otherwise.

Does this mean that society should protect people from themselves? Or rather, if someone believes they are going to get rich putting their life savings into cryptocurrencies because they lack foresight or technical aptitude, should we do what we can to prevent people from being this foolish despite the existing level of trickery that we are willing to tolerate? If people need to be saved from cryptocurrency, then why aren't we saving them from payday loans, or guzzling HFCs in sodas, or wasting time smoking weed, or gambling at casinos? All of those are examples of tricks (yes, they are tricks) designed to extract wealth and lifeforce. Hell, our monetary system itself is a trick. At times we may point them out as evils, but we don't take them so seriously because life can't be so safe. Unless something radically changes in our societies, for all intents and purposes, we are allowing some of us to hang ourselves by our own rope.

Yet somehow crypto bears more fault for some? To me, that doesn't follow. If I create an NFT for my soul, put it up for sale for $1000, and someone actually buys it, are they being scammed? If I fork Bitcoin into a new cryptocurrency, publish a bunch of poppycock about how it will be the next big thing because I got rid of its limits, and I sell those coins and run off with the money, is it of no fault of the customer that they believed such a specious lie?

No and no, in my opinion, because it's not reasonable for society to protect people to such an extent as it would neither be sustainable nor good for every business to be scrutinized to the degree necessary to provide said protection.

Re: Web3 and crypto skepticism is growing and people are finally starting to listen

#328

Post by paulgb »

haswell wrote: post #325
paulgb wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, it's in the name itself - web3 makes it sound like it's the next evolution of the web that we'll all be using in a few years. I think that's part of why there's so much backlash from the tech community -- it feels like a small group of people (who largely haven't built much on the web besides React apps) have decided that they get to call what they're working on the new web, even though it's currently mostly…

There’s a pretty big difference between “this project is named poorly and isn’t ready for prime time” and “advocates want to force people to use it”. Don’t get me wrong - I share plenty of the same concerns others have shared throughout this thread, and tend to think “web3” is not a good thing to call this, but don’t see the “by force” claim as valid at this point. Plenty of apps/projects brand themselves as the next…

Fair, but I think the name is reflective of a greater attitude. I've never been told I'm NGMI (“not going to make it”) for not adopting Serverless, or that I should “have fun staying poor” if I ignore Kubernetes.

Re: Web3 and crypto skepticism is growing and people are finally starting to listen

#329

Post by xtracto »

indymike wrote: post #169
axg11 wrote: post #60

The relentless number of anti-crypto and anti-web3 articles on HN is tiring. Nobody is forcing anyone to partake in this new technology. Skepticism is healthy, but criticism without being constructive is not. There are clearly _some_ novel ideas in the crypto space, even if you think the state of the community today is not healthy. Thousands of teams are exploring ideas on many different fronts (e.g. L1s, L2s, NFTs).…

> The relentless number of anti-crypto and anti-web3 articles on HN is tiring. It's not really cryptocurrency that is fueling it. It is the absolute silliness around NFTs and the rush to import some "blockchain" to otherwise uninteresting products and companies to make them somehow relevant. This is a pattern we saw a lot with prior trends like search, cloud, machine learning and AI. > Thousands of teams are explorin…

Nahhh it's anti-crypto moving goalposts.

First we saw a lot of anti-BTC posts: PoW criticism, usefulness criticism, transactionality criticism and energy use criticism.

Then, we got new technology as ETH, that improved on usefulness, now the criticism was about transactionality, "silliness" of use cases, etc.

Then, we got uses like Compound, Aave, Golem, etc. And the criticism about energy use and transactionality.

Then we got PoS and L2s like Polygon, Lightning, etc... and additional criticism came in

Then we got low-fee or no-fee solutions (XLM, NANO), and Web3 is the next criticism.

I've learned to ignore the destructive criticism in HackerNews. I understand that it has "grown" to be what SlashDot was in my hayday (late 1990s and early 2000): Suddenly all those "young and innovative" dudes that grew up using Walkmans, DiscMans, Commodores, BSDs, Linux PCs, Usenet and HTTP, became too old to understand iPods, Web2, and SaaS. The same thing is happening to people in this news.ycombinator forum: Blockchain technology is disrupting a lot of our preconceived notions (I'm 40... i've gone 3 times through this), and a lot of people are just finding it hard to understand.

Re: Web3 and crypto skepticism is growing and people are finally starting to listen

#330

Post by acdha »

zeruch wrote: post #264
indymike wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The relentless number of anti-crypto and anti-web3 articles on HN is tiring. It's not really cryptocurrency that is fueling it. It is the absolute silliness around NFTs and the rush to import some "blockchain" to otherwise uninteresting products and companies to make them somehow relevant. This is a pattern we saw a lot with prior trends like search, cloud, machine learning and AI. > Thousands of teams are explorin…

"This is a pattern we saw a lot with prior trends like search, cloud, machine learning and AI." This is the industry pattern and has been the case going back many decades; the only real change is since the dotcom era, it's spread to consumers playing along, whereas prior to that it was largely just the 'investor class' in the sandbox.

The difference is that all of those had real products early on. The web was changing how people and businesses interacted by the mid-90s, despite computers costing far more and network access being limited and both being terribly slow. Search was a huge deal shortly afterwards, changing how people shopped, researched, etc. ML/AI has had ups and downs but we also live in a world where machines reading text, organizing your photos, responding to natural language queries, etc. are routine.

In contrast, the blockchain world has consistently failed to produce anything which many people want to buy. The lure of high returns on speculation has attracted more people than any of the products, but there's no durable business hook the way there was for, say, going back to buying plane tickets over the phone.

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