Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation • Hacker News Board

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#321

Post by Retric » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:24 AM UTC

abbassi wrote: post #278

Gareth321 wrote: post #250

Real wages have been flat since the 1970s ( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us... ). "Okay, so people's living standards are about the same since 1970?" Not even close. The problem with inflation is that its calculation is fraught with all kinds of selective weighting, bias, and politics. Take a look at the relative differences between the things which have decreased and increased in cost in…

Very interesting points; there is a scientific clarity in your analysis. But, I would like to add a point: the reality is that the production is in global scale now, the production has no borders, races, nationalities, but the capital has its local interests. The working class is a global class, while bourgeoisie is a local class. But since the bourgeoisie is the dominant class, it makes the working class divided. Li…

Imports are only ~15% of the US GDP, they really don’t explain wage stagnation.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#322

Post by dan-robertson » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:25 AM UTC

hvidgaard wrote: post #280

dan-robertson wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most Americans are significantly worse off since the 1970s I think this is obviously false and hurts the credibility of the rest of this comment. There are many pitfalls with measuring long-term inflation. How much did an internet connection cost in the 1970s? What about a computer? What about a smartphone? These modern technologies make peoples lives much better and were somewhere between impossible and impossibly…

What good is new tech if you cannot afford to buy a house or a new'ish car for the minimum wage, even if you live frugal and save?

The statement was that most Americans are significantly worse off now than [their equivalents in] the 1970s. Do you claim that most Americans fit your description of someone living on minimum wage or are you trying to argue against a point I wasn’t trying to make?

I’m not saying there aren’t problems but even someone with a very low income who is forced (by American life) to run a car for a lot of their money is unlikely to be using a car from the 70s (50 years old) and more likely to use something from the 90s or 00s less safe and efficient than cars of today but still better than cars of the 70s.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#323

Post by dashboardmess » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:27 AM UTC

furyg3 wrote: post #264

Kiro wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at Sweden. The collectively bargained pay increase was below inflation in all sectors. You should unionize for many reasons but I wouldn't trust it as an efficient tool for pay negotiations.

Most of the collective bargaining agreements I've heard about here in the Netherlands involve an automatic inflation correction at the end of the year.

Actually, this is false. This used to be the case in the 70s, but after the Wassenaar Agreement[1], this was removed from nearly all collective bargaining agreements[2]. Some have salary grades that increase automatically by year of experience, but this isn’t the same, because it won’t increase the wages for people starting their career. In general, the stronger unions are able to negotiate salary raises above inflation[3], but this of course depends on the percentage of employees that actually join a union.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wassenaar_Agreement [2] https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/koopkrachtrepar... [3] I recently verified it for my own collective bargaining agreement, and on average, the raises were about 1% point higher than the inflation

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#324

Post by pbhjpbhj » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:27 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #67

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want a raise the best thing you can do is find a new job. Note that this doesn't always even involve taking it. Go get a job offer that pays better and bring it to your boss. If they want to match it, great. If they don't, bye.

From the other side, whenever a member of my team has come to me asking to match an offer I've always refused and wished them well in their new role. If someone is unhappy enough to start job hunting rather than talking to me then it's a clear sign that they'll leave soon regardless of any pay rise. Psychologically, every pay increase makes someone happy for a short time, and then they get used to it and they start t…

The context here is getting an inflation matching pay adjustment. Matching inflation is not a pay rise, it's 'avoiding a real terms pay cut'.

So, you give an inflation matching pay adjustment automatically?

I've gone back to exactly the same job as I started 20 years ago. Pay has doubled, house prices have increased 3-4 times in my small ex-industrial, high-crime, UK city.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#325

Post by kukallan » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:28 AM UTC

toyg wrote: post #257

Gareth321 wrote: post #250

Real wages have been flat since the 1970s ( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us... ). "Okay, so people's living standards are about the same since 1970?" Not even close. The problem with inflation is that its calculation is fraught with all kinds of selective weighting, bias, and politics. Take a look at the relative differences between the things which have decreased and increased in cost in…

> As a non-American, it's heartbreaking to see efforts to unify the underclass completely derailed by this ridiculous race war. Yeah, well, it's not like things are much better in Europe. Far-right parties are now mainstream in most major EU countries, and their n.1 priority is exactly the same. Signed, a Brexit victim.

I can't speak for the whole of Europe and I might be a sheep - but at least in Scandinavia, these far right parties are more of a symptom of the mainstream parties refusal to talk about problems related to immigration combined with US cultural influence. Sweden is no.1 in Europe when it comes to gun violence right now and only last year non-right political parties started discussing current crime waves link to integration / immigration. It's not surprising that the far right - hard on crime and hard on immigrants thrive in this political climate.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#326

Post by WalterBright » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:28 AM UTC

Gareth321 wrote: post #250

Real wages have been flat since the 1970s ( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us... ). "Okay, so people's living standards are about the same since 1970?" Not even close. The problem with inflation is that its calculation is fraught with all kinds of selective weighting, bias, and politics. Take a look at the relative differences between the things which have decreased and increased in cost in…

> why are real wages flat?

Good question. One answer is the government consumes ever more of the GDP. This is going to negatively impact real wages.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#327

Post by random_kris » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:30 AM UTC

1500100900 wrote: post #175

random_kris wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

history does not repeat itself, but it rhymes

but is it "Gucci Gang" rhymes or "The expense of spirit in a waste of shame" rhymes?

That is left as an exercise for the reader

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#328

Post by helpfulmandrill » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:30 AM UTC

Gareth321 wrote: post #250

Real wages have been flat since the 1970s ( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us... ). "Okay, so people's living standards are about the same since 1970?" Not even close. The problem with inflation is that its calculation is fraught with all kinds of selective weighting, bias, and politics. Take a look at the relative differences between the things which have decreased and increased in cost in…

> Okay, so TVs and cellphones are cheaper, but necessities like college, childcare, and healthcare are up significantly.

It feels like it would be better if the basics were cheaper and the trinkets were more expensive...

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#329

Post by nly » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:30 AM UTC

oDot wrote: post #313

Gareth321 wrote: post #250

Real wages have been flat since the 1970s ( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us... ). "Okay, so people's living standards are about the same since 1970?" Not even close. The problem with inflation is that its calculation is fraught with all kinds of selective weighting, bias, and politics. Take a look at the relative differences between the things which have decreased and increased in cost in…

Yep. "Peter Schiff vs Warren Buffett; The Middle Class in the 50's, and Now" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byxd7dTnlXU

While Peters point of view may be seen as dated and chauvinistic, I do feel like the absolute necessity of dual income living today, especially in the city, has had a huge negative impact on quality of family life.

I don't even have kids and I recognize what he's talking about. By the time me and my partner are home (7pm) and have prepped, cooked and cleaned up from dinner, there's no time or energy left to do anything productive or thoughtful. People mock millennials for eating out or ordering in too much, but the temptation to just eat at work and then claw back precious time in the evening is very high - i'd do it in a heartbeat if my partner let me.

It's just market forces at work of course. Once couples become DINKs, and bid up the cost of housing, the single income families simply can't compete and become extinct. Median house prices are 10x median income. Banks will lend you <5x income. For most here now (the UK), buying a property on a single income is a mathematical impossibility without first saving for a decade, living with your parents until you're 30, and then taking out a 30 year variable rate mortgage.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#330

Post by sigmaprimus » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:30 AM UTC

hvidgaard wrote: post #280

dan-robertson wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most Americans are significantly worse off since the 1970s I think this is obviously false and hurts the credibility of the rest of this comment. There are many pitfalls with measuring long-term inflation. How much did an internet connection cost in the 1970s? What about a computer? What about a smartphone? These modern technologies make peoples lives much better and were somewhere between impossible and impossibly…

What good is new tech if you cannot afford to buy a house or a new'ish car for the minimum wage, even if you live frugal and save?

Many people have a misguided belief that home ownership was easy in the 70s, 80s or even the 90s. Yes the prices were lower and maybe the cost/average income ratio was lower but I can attest to the fact that it was no easy feat even back then.

Plenty of people lost their homes, renters had far less rights and although when looking at things through averages seems to indicate a better off middle class, the wages of the top 10% middle class (Mostly Unionized) were propping up a huge amount of the middle class that were grinding it out living paycheck to paycheck with none of the social safety nets currently in place.

I find it incredulous that so many people are blind to what is coming in the next few years, there is a huge sense of entitlement and victimhood based on some idea that the world was easier back then. We are coming out of what I consider almost 35 years of prosperity resultant from "Winning" the cold war but a reconning is right around the corner.

I don't expect many to take my advise but if I was in debt, renting a home and unemployed, I would stop bitching about minimum wage and would be finding a job real fast, the days of help wanted signs in every window are about to end.