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Proof of stake is incapable of producing a consensus

yanmaani.github.io

321–330 of 822 posts

Re: Proof of stake is incapable of producing a consensus

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Renting out equipment for miners is dangerous, as an attack on the network can wipe out all their sunk costs. Bitcoin miner farms are very strongly incentivized to be aligned with the long term health of the system, so they try to play nice close to the ethos of Bitcoin (they learned enough from the blocksize wars that they can get burned if they go against Bitcoin)

An attack on bitcoin might have other motivations. For instance, a powerful government might attack bitcoin specifically to undermine bitcoin's credibility and utility.

I was talking about motivations for renting out, not attacking. A goverment would just take over the miners with violence probably if it wanted to attack the system.

Re: Proof of stake is incapable of producing a consensus

#322
Decred witch is a dao focused on evolving with governance had an interesting block reward split, 60% miners, 30% pos (you get chosen randomly) and 10% tresuary.

Seems miners have been driving the price down for years and a new proposal just was written to give them only 10%, and 80 to stakeholders.

https://proposals.decred.org/record/427e1d4

Re: Proof of stake is incapable of producing a consensus

#323
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Proof of Work does not get you any votes at all. It only buys you the right to append a block of transactions to the ledger, which is the same thing as having 100% of the votes.

Nonsense. Mining gives you zero votes. Miners don’t control the protocol. Governance is not determined by hashrate. This is just another major flaw that all PoS shitcoins have.

No one is talking about governance. The term "consensus" refers to the decision about which transactions to append to the ledger, and the decision is to go with whatever set of transactions the miner that has spent the most money has chosen. It has nothing to do with governance issues.

Re: Proof of stake is incapable of producing a consensus

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is zero waste in PoW. It’s all useful service, therefore waste term doesn’t apply.

If you use 100 watts incandescent light bulb to light your room with 1 watt LED would do, that is waste.

usefulness is subjective.

Re: Proof of stake is incapable of producing a consensus

#325

Whether PoS will work, I don't know. But the author didn't realize that PoW is certainly doomed. PoW miners tend to spend more and more resources on finding blocks, until the cost approaches the rewards. But the rewards go up as the cryptocurrency becomes more popular, because the price and transaction fees go up. Therefore, a PoW cryptocurrency tends to "eat the world" as it becomes bigger. That's why Bitcoin is alr…

I generally like to think about this from opposite direction: miners and bitcoin investors are incentivised for bitcoin to be used and for the price to go up.

Why miners? Because their main source of income is not the transaction fee, but basecoin, the guaranteed bitcoin payout for each mined block.

Due to Bitcoin being such a huge amount of money, unethical players do anything to lure people in, including MLM-style marketing, artificially inflating volume traded, and overplaying coin stats (like market cap). Then there's also media / influencers who, without second thought, introduce inexperienced people to investing in high-volatility assets.

Re: Proof of stake is incapable of producing a consensus

#326
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. Mining gives you zero votes. Miners don’t control the protocol. Governance is not determined by hashrate. This is just another major flaw that all PoS shitcoins have.

No one is talking about governance. The term "consensus" refers to the decision about which transactions to append to the ledger, and the decision is to go with whatever set of transactions the miner that has spent the most money has chosen. It has nothing to do with governance issues.

then if you're not talking about governance, you're still wrong. there's no voting, only if you insist on re-defining what words mean, at which point i won't be interested in continuing the discussion.

Re: Proof of stake is incapable of producing a consensus

#327
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Proof of Work does not get you any votes at all. It only buys you the right to append a block of transactions to the ledger, which is the same thing as having 100% of the votes.

You have it backwards. Nodes decide if they will append your block to their chain. A miner that decides to mine out of consensus blocks is just burning money, and will be on their own fork with their “100% votes” that nobody else uses. Give it a try, spend a few million on mining equipment and then try forcing something on the network. It’s not a democratic system, never was.

Nodes have zero decision power, as far as I understand. They just go with the chain that is the most expensive to produce.

Re: Proof of stake is incapable of producing a consensus

#328
post #307
post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bitcoin is already approaching 1% of global electricity consumption, if it hasn't passed that point already And this is the reason why I cannot take any climate change conversation seriously unless it includes the topic of cryptocurrencies. Whatever the promises of cryptocurrencies were, now most (all?) degenerated into a mechanism for speculation, and effectively into a self-sustaining and self-promoting mechanism…

You can't take a discussion of climate change seriously unless it specifically addresses a single-percentage problem?

Do you think most proposed measures would have a bigger effect?

Re: Proof of stake is incapable of producing a consensus

#329

(my day job is developer on Proof-of-Stake Algorand block chain, I'm a developer, this may not be polished official PR) Article's theory about malicious old blocks doesn't hold up. Let's say I start a new node and verify history since the beginning. Somewhere along the line I'm connected to a malicious node which hands me a fictionalized block. It would need to have been signed by not just one but about 30-45 account…

PoS is Plutocracy on Steroids. You've outlined only one, the most obvious and least probable, mode of failure. The more subtle and wildly prevalent failure mode is that the consensus will be set by the few whales, who will maximize their rent extraction at the expense of numerous small players, which will include most later adopters, aka the entire population of Earth. It's already visible on smaller scale in DAOs, e…

>> consensus will be set by the few whales, who will maximize their rent extraction at the expense of numerous small players

Aren't you just describing capitalism here? The people that created the system and own the biggest share of it have gigantic influence on it. Matter of fact, isn't that exactly what happened in ethereums PoW network, too? The developers decided to switch to PoS regardless of what the current participants want.

In general, isn't the idea of using PoS that if you aren't happy with the current system, you can easily fork into a competitor? If enough people think the current system is unjust, then you can switch to the new one, where you will be part of the development. At the beginning of the fork you also wouldn't need that much compute, as PoS is more efficient and you aren't going to have many users/transactions in the first place.

Since it's easy to switch currency (at least easier than privately setting up a Dollar 2.0), members of the original currency have to behave fairly, else people are going to switch. Note: The thing people are switching to doesn't even have to be better in any way than the original currency. It just has to have different controllers to influence the members of the original system.

The way I see it, is that there's no meaningful way in which PoS based currencies are worse than the current monetary system: large stakeholders in current global currencies also have gigantic leverage (think of money printing during the pandemic or bailouts after the 2008 financial crisis). The real advantage I see with PoS systems is not the system itself, but the tooling that comes with it and allows for the development of competitor currencies that check the power of each other. With current global currencies there's no checks-and-balances system inside the monetary decision making process, while a fleet of independent PoS has the chance for checks and balances to be induced through competitive pressure.

Re: Proof of stake is incapable of producing a consensus

#330
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For PoW, you'd have to know the hash of the start of the chain (the "genesis block") in advance to verify you downloaded the correct chain. Nope. You could fork the chain at a period of low difficulty and it would still stem from the genesis block. It would either be a short chain, or have clearly low difficulty though, so it wouldnt fool anyone knowledgeable. Im not sure how you would leverage that chain for fraud…

A while ago bitcoin clients changed from facoring the 'longest' chain to favoring the chain with the most work done on it. (To prevent long chains with low difficulty)

So... the consensus rules of the network changed, you need to make sure you have the correct client, and bitcoin is weakly subjective after all?
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