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California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

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Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#321

Post by anthk »

vntx wrote: post #157
bko wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This policy has nothing to do with the topic of algebra. This is code for advanced math, because algebra is typically considered advanced for < 9th grade children. Since the organizations feel ashamed that they're failing certain demographics as evidenced by being under-represented in the advanced classes, they're just scrapping the advanced classes for everyone. Truly disgraceful

Indeed. A disgrace for education but a win for educational communism. It’s a good thing the US can import talent because California’s students are being trained to be cognitively lazy. How will these children fare in a society that is getting more technologically advanced, dynamic and complex by the day without the problem solving tools to handle it? I can’t wait to find out.

Communism? The Soviet books on Math were crazily more deep than the US ones.

Read about Spivak's Calculus.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#322

Post by Der_Einzige »

abeppu wrote: post #278

So much of the discussion is around how to pace/sequence the same traditional list of topics (geometry, trig, precalc, calc) but maybe we should be considering that these might not be the most important concepts anymore? More people should know stats, and this doesn't need to be strictly sequenced with those other concepts. Yes, integrals show up with continuous distributions, but we don't need to really care that mu…

Not sure why you're being downvotes. Stats and discrete math are sorely underrepresented in high school math education. The harm of this continuing will be extremely high going forward.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#323

Post by YeBanKo »

abeppu wrote: post #278

So much of the discussion is around how to pace/sequence the same traditional list of topics (geometry, trig, precalc, calc) but maybe we should be considering that these might not be the most important concepts anymore? More people should know stats, and this doesn't need to be strictly sequenced with those other concepts. Yes, integrals show up with continuous distributions, but we don't need to really care that mu…

Statistics is based on probability and probability is based on set theory and a concept of measure. Discrete probability may do away without calculus. But it needs some basic understanding of algebra. Concept of probability, imo, is very hard to understand. And then you have conditional probability, which fooled even high ranking mathematicians. Allegedly Paul Erdos didn’t get it until a computer simulation was presented to him [0]. I think venturing into statistics may be left for later. I would agree though that combinatorics can be taught earlier and give a good understanding or discrete probability. I don’t see thought how it can be successfully without algebra and calculus.

[0] https://www.wired.com/2014/11/monty-hall-erdos-limited-minds...

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#324

Post by vinay427 »

ramesh31 wrote: post #59
nottorp wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always find it hilarious that the pre college education in US is so messed up. Instead of doing Algebra 1, Algebra 2, calculus, geometry as one subject that you do in a year and then completely forgetting about it for the rest of the high school, how about you do a little bit of everything every year from grade 8-12. Problem solved. I don't understand. US high school kids only do math one year out of the 4? And n…

Math in US high schools ends at what most countries would consider a middle school level. Algebra 2 is generally the only requirement. The vast majority of students graduate without ever even knowing what calculus is.

> Math in US high schools ends at what most countries would consider a middle school level.

I agree that the nationwide baseline is abysmally, or even tragically, low. This is clearly problematic in and of itself. However, there isn’t a standard curriculum for US high schools as this varies widely by state and town/district/school.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#325

Post by anthk »

throwvirtever wrote: post #274
vntx wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. A disgrace for education but a win for educational communism. It’s a good thing the US can import talent because California’s students are being trained to be cognitively lazy. How will these children fare in a society that is getting more technologically advanced, dynamic and complex by the day without the problem solving tools to handle it? I can’t wait to find out.

> A disgrace for education but a win for educational communism. I was under the impression that (actual) communist educational systems were geared predominantly toward the most advanced students, rather than the other way around. Cranking out prizewinning physicists, mathematicians, and chess grand-masters at a somewhat greater than expected rate.

Spivak. Heck, even Yakov Perelman. Recreational Math books that could make American teens cry over themselves.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#326

Post by bigger_cheese »

denkmoon wrote: post #103
bko wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This policy has nothing to do with the topic of algebra. This is code for advanced math, because algebra is typically considered advanced for < 9th grade children. Since the organizations feel ashamed that they're failing certain demographics as evidenced by being under-represented in the advanced classes, they're just scrapping the advanced classes for everyone. Truly disgraceful

How old is a 9th grade student in the US? My cohort started Algebra in year 7 in Australia, which is 12/13 years old. And similar to GP's proposal, we learn age appropriate topics every single year, every single week.

My vague memories of my Australian High school math curriculum (year 7 to 12) was something like this, I went to high school from 1997 to 2002.

Year 7 was geometry focused, Pythagoras theorem a lot of graphing things with protractors compasses etc. Calculating angles from parallel lines stuff like that.

Year 8 was much more algebra centric quadradic formula, simultaneous equations, expansion of brackets.

Year 9 was Trigonometry I remember there was a lot of 3d shapes and volumes. Volume of spheres, cones, pyramids etc.

Year 10 was Conic sections circles Ellipsis Parabolas hyperbola etc a lot of graphing again and more advanced trig.

In Year 11 and 12 I took the most advanced of the math streams I had two math classes. My other courses were Physics, Chemistry, Biology and English So math was a third of my course load, more if you counted physics which was highly math based as well.

Year 11 One class was Calculus focused, limits, fundamental theorem, basic derivatives and simple integration (Simpson's rule and stuff like that). The other class was linear algebra, vecrors, dot and cross products basic matrix manipulation and matrix transformation - reflectons skew etc.

Year 12 We covered parametric calculus, complex numbers more advanced integration and derivatives (Chain rule, substitutions etc). I vaguely remember we covered a bit of hyperbolic functions (cosh, sinh etc). The other course was statistics and probability as well things like sequences and series, stuff like binomial theorem.

I studied Engineering at uni and my first year university math was pretty much a repeat of year 11 and 12 math but a bit more in depth.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#327

Post by throwaway19937 »

unanswered wrote: post #203
bko wrote: post #56

This is one of those issues that I can't understand the opposing argument. It's just an issue I find so objectionable that I cannot understand why anyone would be imposing this. Literally holding kids back. The only defense I hear is that kids don't really benefit from advanced classes and they'll be fine anyway. But gifted children will not necessarily be fine. Most of the smartest people I know struggled in school…

You're not supposed to understand "the opposing argument", because it's fake. The real goal of this change is to increase the gap between kids whose family situation will give them an opportunity to learn actual math before college, and those whose family situation will keep them permanently locked out of college. This will ensure that the demographics of the next generation are even more skewed toward social instabi…

> You're not supposed to understand "the opposing argument", because it's fake. The real goal of this change is to increase the gap between kids whose family situation will give them an opportunity to learn actual math before college, and those whose family situation will keep them permanently locked out of college. This will ensure that the demographics of the next generation are even more skewed toward social instability and opportunities to replace "the current system".

There's no evidence of conspiracy and the history of public education is filled with fads, manias, and ill-conceived attempts at reform. Why would this be any different?

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#328

Post by dragonwriter »

tremon wrote: post #284
cortesoft wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Mozart was writing concertos at 5. Prodigies existing shouldn't define how we educate people.

Should Mozart have been kept away from musical instruments because his peers weren't at his level? In other words, should people existing define how we educate prodigies? Who gets to determine who is a prodigy and who isn't, and at what age?

> Should Mozart have been kept away from musical instruments because his peers weren't at his level?

In his consumption of publicly-funded universal education? Or...something completely irrelevant?

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#329

Post by mixmastamyk »

dragonwriter wrote: post #286
primitivesuave wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Page 7 is where they completely lose me. "Students are required to “show their work” in standardized, prescribed ways" is a manifestation of white supremacy? If you click on that item, it takes you to a page where they suggest non-standard classroom activities like "Have students create TikTok videos, silent films, or cartoons about mathematical concepts or procedures." I'm pretty open minded about education pedagogy…

> "Students are required to “show their work” in standardized, prescribed ways" is a manifestation of white supremacy? “White supremacy” is an accurate but excessively polarizing term; “cultural favoritism in favor of status quo elites, whose preferences and cultural practices are encoded in the prescribed methods of demonstration” would perhaps both be less inflammatory and easier to see the connections between the…

These kind of anti-solutions backfire.

Say there's a real problem, the police are killing people. Instead of solving that... well few of us have any power over that, so instead we resort to changing things we do have power over.

Like… watering down math classes and pretending that is even the thousandth thing on the list of solutions that should be tackled first as a response. It's so far down the list (and has better remedies) that it actually hurts the cause.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#330

Post by nicoburns »

bko wrote: post #71
darth_avocado wrote: post #14

Here's a revolutionary idea that pretty much all of the world adopts, if students are having trouble with a topic, get them to do more of it, instead of running away from it. I always find it hilarious that the pre college education in US is so messed up. Instead of doing Algebra 1, Algebra 2, calculus, geometry as one subject that you do in a year and then completely forgetting about it till the next time you have t…

This policy has nothing to do with the topic of algebra. This is code for advanced math, because algebra is typically considered advanced for < 9th grade children. Since the organizations feel ashamed that they're failing certain demographics as evidenced by being under-represented in the advanced classes, they're just scrapping the advanced classes for everyone. Truly disgraceful

It has everything to do with Algebra, because Algebra is only considered advanced because it's not taught until later. Primary school children are perfectly capable of doing algebra as shown by many other countries that teach much more "pure maths" in schools.
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