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Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

wired.co.uk

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Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#321

Post by randomswede »

munk-a wrote: post #225
monocasa wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Privately documented APIs are still APIs.

I don't disagree (though when it comes to this particular case it's a question of what the opinion of Swedish courts is) but there's just a lot of grey area there. Would you consider `ls` an API for exposing your filesystem?

I would consider "ls" a presentation tool that uses an API to present information about a file system. I would consider stat/lstat/opendir/readdir/closedir the API that "ls" use to gather the information.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#323

Post by jterrys »

rndgermandude wrote: post #155
wonderwonder wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I think this digital child managing system sounds moderately dystopian to be honest" I disagree, I have 2 kids in elementary school and it is very useful to be able to look up what the kids have scheduled for the day to determine what to dress them in, see what's for lunch and if I need to pack them something if they won't like the available option. Most importantly though its very helpful to look up what homework /…

Back when I was in school we had a schedule, for the semester. That worked perfectly well for me and my parents. Our kitchen had a pin board with these schedules pinned to it. After a month or so we all had a new schedule internalized anyway. As for food, we had a cafeteria which served warm meals, usually at least two different options, and various other things like sandwiches, along with two "kiosks" where the jani…

>I think so it makes a big difference in the kid's experience if the parent asks them, or if the parent essentially goes over their head and consults some online resource.

This is the important point most everyone here glosses over. It's hard to discipline a child and make them cooperate in a system of trust. It's much easier to eliminate the trust out. As a stressed parent (and lets be honest, every parent is a stressed parent) you don't have the time and patience for this. I think most of us on the opposite end of this discussion lament this.

In my opinion this is a type of failure you cannot, and should not optimize out. Children's personalities are different. Certain behaviors induce certain rewards and consequences. Failure is part of the development process of their personalities.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#324

Post by bjourne »

toolz wrote: post #237
bjourne wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there is no API here. The article makes it clear that you were intercepting client-server communication not meant to be used by third parties in order to write your own client. That it could be used as an API doesn't matter since the intent wasn't to create an API. I could do the same thing and write an app for, say, the tax agency by scraping its website but it would be a legal gray area.

I'm not sure I follow why that would matter. Their constitution says once data has been released, it is no longer their property (because it's a public institution). They created a way to access the data, so the data has been released to the parents and so the data now belongs to the parents. The parents own the data and as such it would seem to follow they can access it anyway they want.

It matters because the definition of data breach is very broad. For example, if I run a website and tell you that you may not browse my website but you continue to browse my website you may be guilty of data breach. If I tell you not to login to my website but you still login because I forgot to disable your account you very likely is guilty of data breach. Since the city didn't publish their information through an API, nor intended the information to be used by third parties, and also explicitly stated that they did not want Christian's app to access their information, it's quite possible that the app facilitated data breach.

See the Aaron Schwartz trial which was about essentially the same thing.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#325

Post by henrikschroder »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #307
henrikschroder wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's not how it works. Sweden has separations of power like every other liberal democracy, but the cake isn't cut the same way as it is in the US. Government offices are much more independent and protected from political interference than in the US, for example. Basically, elected city officials set the budget and general guidance, and can appoint some administrators, but most people on the administrative side…

Thanks for the explanation but I believe there’s been a misunderstanding. By pension off I meant is there a possibility for someone mediocre, or promoted beyond their level of competence, to be immediately dismissed with a generous pension. And to replace them with someone else selected for fixing the problem?

Oh, you meant the other way around.

Well, same answer, actually. The elected politicians can't really interfere with personnel matters for either getting rid of people or hiring people, so no.

The idea is that people working for the city should be immune to changes among the elected officials, for better or worse. And this time it's for worse.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#326

Post by henrikschroder »

GhettoComputers wrote: post #314
henrikschroder wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public procurement requiring tax-funded projects to go to the lowest bidder is how this system is defended. There's a whole industry of companies who cater to these kinds of projects, and they don't give a shit about their reputation, because they're busy making sweet, sweet, money. And if you think US military contractors aren't wasteful and shoddy, I have a bridge to sell you!

I don't think all of them are done shoddily, but the US has the most powerful military, so they must be at least less bad, after all a lot of powerful military vehicles were contracted like the SR-71.

> so they must be at least less bad

Not necessarily, because they're throwing the most amount of money at the problem.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#327

Post by e3bc54b2 »

cmurf wrote: post #161
pixl97 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can leave him to handle his own schoolwork It turns out that kids are not adults. Part of raising them is teaching them life skills such as time management is something that takes a of time and management. You may be lucky and have a child that manages time well, or you may have a contrarian that does what they want. Part of being that manager, is knowing exactly what you are managing and having readily available…

I am contrary. Around 12, I rejected homework, learned to manipulate and lie instead. It took many detentions and frustrated parents to get me reoriented. I can completely understand kids who don't like being told to be a rote learning little worker bee who does what's told without question. Why do this at all? Why do it this way? No one else cares, they just want it over with as fast as possible, but the same crap c…

Hacker: Education in this country is a disaster. We're supposed to be preparing children for a working life. Three quarters of the time they're bored stiff!

Sir Humphrey: Well I should have thought that being bored stiff for three quarters of the time was an excellent preparation for working life.

- Yes Minister (Season 2, Episode 7 : National Education System)

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#328

Post by henrikschroder »

tofflos wrote: post #281
xmprt wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can a different parent look at my child's grades? Or is there still some level of privacy where only certain parties are allowed to view certain documents even if they are official.

Yes. Edit 1: I figured I should back this up with a source but all the ones I could find are written in Swedish. So either accept my translation or ask a trustworthy Swede to translate it for you. > Skolbetyg är allmänna handlingar, och vem som helst kan beställa fram betyg från arkiven. Journalister brukar t ex ofta vilja se på nytillträdda ministrars skolbetyg. Source https://riksarkivet.se/skolbetyg Translation: S…

The example you're talking about is for adults who have been out of school for a while.

I'm pretty sure you can't request information about minors, so you can't look up the grades of your neighbour's kids or something like that.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#329

Post by cutemonster »

wonderwonder wrote: post #26
raxxorrax wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said, as a kid I would have hated this. I don't think kids benefit from this kind of overbearing parenting in the long run. Better than being neglected, I guess. Perhaps this is useful for very young children, but knowing myself I would have broken out of there as quickly as possible.

I can understand personal preference of a child but study after study show that children whose parents are actively involved with their education and schooling get better results.

I was a bit happy for sometimes getting help with reviewing homework and someone to practice English words with (that is, one of my parents). And who reminded me of things I'd forgotten, be it homework or the sports bag.

Some people here (not you) seem to think that one shoe fits all -- that because they didn't want the parents to be involved, that's what best for everyone.

When in fact kids (and grown up people too) can be very different from each other

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#330

Post by eesmith »

silicon2401 wrote: post #177
jacobolus wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden is something like 20% foreign immigrants and another 5% who are children of 2 immigrant parents. For the past half century Sweden has taken in a lot of refugees and other immigrants, and has more foreign residents per capita than the USA. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sweden Taiwan is 3% foreign immigrants, Japan is 2%.

The article doesn't say where those immigrants are from. Swedes and Norwegians have different cultures and histories, but there's a huge difference between 20% Norwegian immigrants and 20% Chinese immigrants

I found a spreadsheet at https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/statistik-efter-amne/befo... (Thanks Google Translate!)

2 million are not born in Sweden.

Of these, the top 10 are:

  Syrien 193,594
  Irak 146,440
  Finland 140,337
  Polen 93,762
  Iran 81,301
  Somalia 70,184
  Jugoslavien 63,419
  Afghanistan 60,858
  Bosnien och Hercegovina 60,161
  Turkiet 52,628
(The bottom includes the 1 person from Tuvalu.)

Then there's "born in Sweden, both parents from the same foreign country"

  Finland 62,042
  Irak 58,864
  Syrien 32,829
  Jugoslavien 30,903  (Yugoslavia)
  Somalia 30,743
"Born in Sweden, parents from two different foreign countries, father's country"

  Jugoslavien 13,111
  Irak 10,530
  Syrien 7,880
  Libanon 7,604
  Turkiet 5,969
"Born in Sweden, parents from two different foreign countries, mother's country"

  Finland 13,968
  Jugoslavien 10,696
  Syrien 9,381
  Polen 5,949  (Poland)
  Libanon 5,645
"Born in Sweden, mother from Sweden, foreign-born father"

  Finland 65,872
  Danmark 29,235
  Norge 27,275    (Norway)
  Tyskland 23,670  (Germany)
  Förenade kungariket 16,965  (UK)
"Born in Sweden, father from Sweden, foreign-born mother"

  Finland 113,178
  Norge 39,676
  Tyskland 25,560
  Danmark 22,990
  Polen 16,279
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