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What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam?

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Re: What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam?

#321

Post by winternett »

diffeomorphism wrote: post #299
kbenson wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is. If you want a more accurate analogy, it's like getting into a cab and asking to go to Morton's Meats and the cab driver saying "are you sure? I know this really great place called Shelley's Steaks that's better and cheaper! What do you say?" and then you get to make a call as to whether to trust the cab driver (google) has your best interests at heart or not, and whether to go where you originally wanted or to…

Your analogy is much more transparent about it. Google is more like the following. "Hi, I would like to go to Morton's meats" "Sure, I can take you to Shelly's" "No, I said Morton's" "Oh, the steak house downtown. Sure, I can take you to Billy's" "What? No! Morton, you hear me" "Ah, yeah, Morton, here you go.... by the way, the other places paid for ads" Much less transparent, much more obnoxious.

And then Billy's and Shelly's actually make terrible steaks with all kinds of hidden costs and cheap side dishes because they cut corners in order to make up for the loss on their annual advertising spend.... Google helping business... Yeah. :L

Re: What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam?

#322

Post by aerosmile »

dangrossman wrote: post #291
aerosmile wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now I am curious - what are the examples of unprofitable performance marketing campaigns at that scale conducted by public companies?

> When P&G turned off $200 million of their digital ad spending, they saw NO CHANGE in business outcomes. When Chase reduced their programmatic reach from 400,000 sites showing its ads to 5,000 sites (a 99% decrease), they saw NO CHANGE in business outcomes. When Uber turned off $120 million of their digital ad spending meant to drive more app installs, they saw NO CHANGE in the rate of app installs. https://www.forb…

That was an incredibly misleading article. If you check the links, you find the following:

1. P&G didn't turn off that spend, it shifted it to other marketing platforms.

2. Chase didn't change its marketing spend, it just concentrated it from 400k sites to 5k sites.

3. Uber found out that their agency was committing fraud and AFAIK the case is still being litigated.

I hate being that guy, but check the links. Those reporters really must have an agenda or something (or are just struggling to get the clicks, so they need to make a story out of nothing).

Re: What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam?

#323

Post by mbg721 »

diffeomorphism wrote: post #299
kbenson wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is. If you want a more accurate analogy, it's like getting into a cab and asking to go to Morton's Meats and the cab driver saying "are you sure? I know this really great place called Shelley's Steaks that's better and cheaper! What do you say?" and then you get to make a call as to whether to trust the cab driver (google) has your best interests at heart or not, and whether to go where you originally wanted or to…

Your analogy is much more transparent about it. Google is more like the following. "Hi, I would like to go to Morton's meats" "Sure, I can take you to Shelly's" "No, I said Morton's" "Oh, the steak house downtown. Sure, I can take you to Billy's" "What? No! Morton, you hear me" "Ah, yeah, Morton, here you go.... by the way, the other places paid for ads" Much less transparent, much more obnoxious.

"Yep, headed to Moron's Meats, it's really popular...(mumbles) let me know if you really meant to go to Morton's Meats..."

Re: What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam?

#324

Post by sokoloff »

account42 wrote: post #302
sokoloff wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's fairly clear that Amazon and Ebay would show up as the top organic results. What wouldn't show up is lmm-cookware.com, launched early October 2021, who is trying to establish themselves as a new destination for cooking enthusiasts. That domain is new, the business is new, no Google reviews, but they've got the pan in stock, are willing to sell it for $30 shipped, and have an advertising budget to reach c…

> I think it's fairly clear that Amazon and Ebay would show up as the top organic results. Why? How websites are ranked "organically" is somethine that is up to the search engine. A user-focused search engine would have no problem including factors like price (for shopping sites) that the user cares about. An even better one might provide the user with options to refine the ranking criteria for each search. Meanwhile…

In such a world, I’m assuming their listings would be near the top as lots of people click on Amazon’s and EBay’s organic results (due to the wide selection on their marketplaces and generally very competitive pricing and good delivery track record). What people click on seems a good proxy for a search engine of “what are people looking for? (also phrased as “what will bring people back to my search engine next time?”)

In terms of winning the SERP paid ad bid, I don’t care if the search engine shows me the ad that’s best for them, because that will still give the newer business the chance to win the bid. If they choose not to, well, in that case I don’t see their ad. If the search engine doesn’t have ads, then in all cases I don’t see their ad.

If they go completely insanely rogue (like showing me a paid mesothelioma ad regardless of my search term), they either lose my future search traffic (“foosearch never has what I’m looking for”) or they lose the advertiser (“mesothelioma ads convert well for us on barsearch but not on foosearch; I need to lower or pull my bids on foosearch”)

Re: What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam?

#325

Post by floatingatoll »

usui wrote: post #293
floatingatoll wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's due to illegal SEO practices where they serve Googlebot a plate of GPT3 meets keyword spam, and then serve you a page full of advertising and phishing links.

I've been wondering for a long time what's been going on. This makes a lot of sense! So if the User Agent is Google, the website produces relevant-sounding content with no JavaScript spam? I never realized GPT-3 could be used for this. The next time I see a bait-and-switch website in my search, I'll try changing my User Agent to Google.

GPT3-alike, not GPT3 specifically. Google’s bot can’t detect when it’s being fed plausible gibberish, or worse, stolen content with random keywords injected. I’m very curious if your Googlebot surfing comes up with any interesting outcomes!

Re: What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam?

#326

Post by floatingatoll »

dorfsmay wrote: post #281
floatingatoll wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, assume the taxi rides are free. The taxi driver is now wasting your time taking you all across town just for a selfish kickback. Meanwhile, you value your time, presumably , so you're getting more and more annoyed as they do this. I don't see how removing the cost of taxi somehow makes this scenario acceptable. What am I missing?

A selfish kickback? Would you drive a taxi for free? Nobody forced you in that free taxi, you got in on your own. Use another service if you don't like the cost of "free" (ads).

Yes, freedom of choice, et cetera. But what do you think? Is this a defensible, ethical behavior by the taxi driver or not? Is it by Google or not?

Re: What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam?

#327

Post by 135792468 »

aerosmile wrote: post #77

There are so many holes in these arguments that you could drive a truck through it. Which is so infuriating, because a big part of my professional career consisted of watching all of Rand's SEO videos and really appreciating them. I really thought he was a genius. But then over the past few years, he started sharing more general views on entrepreneurship, and those takeaways just didn't really make much sense. Basica…

Don’t know who you are but your path and journey in the industry sounds exactly like mine.

Re: What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam?

#328

Post by IX-103 »

floatingatoll wrote: post #208
vkou wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An ad directing shoppers to your competitors who pay them is not a protection racket, no more than a travel agency directing travelers to businesses that they have a relationship with. It's the entire business model of aggregators and intermediaries and middle men, which compose roughly half the world's working population.

You tell a cab driver to take you to Morton's Meats and instead they take you to Shelly's Steaks (who pays them a kickback each time they do this), and then charge you for that detour to earn their kickback when you demand they take you to Morton's like you asked in the first place. Is this appropriate behavior by the taxi driver? Would a regular person consider this deserving of punishment? Is Google's search result…

You ask the waiter for a Coke, they ask you if you want Pepsi instead (because they get kickbacks to sell Pepsi). Is that appropriate behavior for a restaurant?

How much is Google charging you for your searches? I get them for free. Sure, sometimes it's a pain to scroll down past the ad results when they're not relevant but it only costs me time and attention.

Re: What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam?

#329

Post by bborud »

aerosmile wrote: post #77

There are so many holes in these arguments that you could drive a truck through it. Which is so infuriating, because a big part of my professional career consisted of watching all of Rand's SEO videos and really appreciating them. I really thought he was a genius. But then over the past few years, he started sharing more general views on entrepreneurship, and those takeaways just didn't really make much sense. Basica…

I worked on several web search engines in the 2000s. During that time I ended up next to someone who was in the SEO business a handful of times at dinners or meetings. When they explained what they were doing to me I kept thinking "this kind of explains how belief systems and religions are formed".

You would have these very complete theories of how search engine ranking worked - completely disconnected from reality and unburdened by any actual knowledge. If there was ever a cargo cult, SEO was it.

I still cringe when people say that they have "done SEO" on their site while I'm in the room. It is kind of like telling their mechanic they've sacrificed a goat so their car will get better mileage.

Re: What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam?

#330

Post by floatingatoll »

IX-103 wrote: post #328
floatingatoll wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You tell a cab driver to take you to Morton's Meats and instead they take you to Shelly's Steaks (who pays them a kickback each time they do this), and then charge you for that detour to earn their kickback when you demand they take you to Morton's like you asked in the first place. Is this appropriate behavior by the taxi driver? Would a regular person consider this deserving of punishment? Is Google's search result…

You ask the waiter for a Coke, they ask you if you want Pepsi instead (because they get kickbacks to sell Pepsi). Is that appropriate behavior for a restaurant? How much is Google charging you for your searches? I get them for free. Sure, sometimes it's a pain to scroll down past the ad results when they're not relevant but it only costs me time and attention.

Most restaurants don’t carry both Coke and Pepsi, which in this analogy would be the taxi driver truthfully saying “Morton’s is closed”. That’s a fine time to offer an alternative, but that’s not what’s being discussed here.
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