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The real OnlyFans scandal is the unaccountable power of platforms and banks

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Re: The real OnlyFans scandal is the unaccountable power of platforms and banks

#321

Post by TeMPOraL »

croes wrote: post #180
FranksTV wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if it's really a great market that's underserved, then you should launch a payment processor that serves the market. People think this is about morality, but it's a lot more about the cost of operating in that market. I bet that there are way more claims of fraud, money laundering investigations, subpoenas and other overhead that the banks don't want to deal with. Like teenagers stealing credit cards to pay c…

A payment processor is useless without the possibility to pay with a credit card. And that means you depend on Visa, Mastercard and Amex.

Bank transfers are still a thing, aren't they? And payment processors built around those? I can't recall when was the last time I paid on-line using my card.

On that note, the whole reliance on cards for on-line feels like a stupid hack that got way out of control. A card is just a physical access token for the account - it shouldn't be reused on-line like this. You should be able to generate per-payment tokens on demand instead. The whole mental model around online payments is bonkers - it's just taking the meatspace model and adding "but with computers!" to it, where it's the meatspace practices that are a kludge that digital doesn't need.

Re: The real OnlyFans scandal is the unaccountable power of platforms and banks

#323

Post by dzhiurgis »

ckdarby wrote: post #314
dzhiurgis wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is there any fraud these days with 3d secure, etc?

Sometimes merchants will turn off 3d secure because of the approval drop with 3ds. This is one of the main reasons why 3dsv2 was introduced to elimate the friction. Even with 3dsv1 the liability doesn't always shift to the issuing bank. For example, I believe it is Mastercard NA(Might be Visa NA) that doesn't allow any 3ds liability shift for high risk merchants. Source: Worked at payment processor in high risk proce…

What’s the difference between the two systems?

Re: The real OnlyFans scandal is the unaccountable power of platforms and banks

#324

Post by valzam »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #321
croes wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A payment processor is useless without the possibility to pay with a credit card. And that means you depend on Visa, Mastercard and Amex.

Bank transfers are still a thing, aren't they? And payment processors built around those? I can't recall when was the last time I paid on-line using my card . On that note, the whole reliance on cards for on-line feels like a stupid hack that got way out of control. A card is just a physical access token for the account - it shouldn't be reused on-line like this. You should be able to generate per-payment tokens on d…

This partly exists. But could of course be much simpler to use:

1) some banks/fintech offer virtual cards. For example, whenever I need to pay with credit card at a site that seems to be using some homegrown system I create a new virtual card in transferwise and destroy it right after.

2) I've seen banks offer virtual cards with CVC codes that change every 24h hours.

Re: The real OnlyFans scandal is the unaccountable power of platforms and banks

#325

Post by TeMPOraL »

valzam wrote: post #324
TeMPOraL wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bank transfers are still a thing, aren't they? And payment processors built around those? I can't recall when was the last time I paid on-line using my card . On that note, the whole reliance on cards for on-line feels like a stupid hack that got way out of control. A card is just a physical access token for the account - it shouldn't be reused on-line like this. You should be able to generate per-payment tokens on d…

This partly exists. But could of course be much simpler to use: 1) some banks/fintech offer virtual cards. For example, whenever I need to pay with credit card at a site that seems to be using some homegrown system I create a new virtual card in transferwise and destroy it right after. 2) I've seen banks offer virtual cards with CVC codes that change every 24h hours.

Re 1), virtual cards are useful if you can get them (banks that I use stubbornly refuse to provide them; same story with subaccounts). But it feels like doubling-down on the bad mental model.

Cards make sense in meatspace, not on-line. Virtual cards are stretching the analogy already. Short-lived virtual cards are pushing it to the limits. What users need is the ability to generate single-use payment authorization tokens. Talking about "cards" carries too much irrelevant meatspace baggage; we've already worked out different, better-fitting abstractions for digital use.

Re: The real OnlyFans scandal is the unaccountable power of platforms and banks

#326

Post by climb_stealth »

theelous3 wrote: post #60

As far as I was aware, the main reason banks don't want to deal with porn is the huge rate of chargebacks that occur. Post nut clarity is apparently a financial problem.

I wonder if that is related to dodgy subscription schemes on porn websites as well. I looked into it a few times and every portal had ridiculous hidden subscriptions. Every access pass automatically converted into a hugely expensive monthly subscription. And I presume it is similarly hidden or difficult to get out of it again.

I'm really happy to pay for content, but shit like that makes me nope right out of there and look for alternatives or not bother.

Re: The real OnlyFans scandal is the unaccountable power of platforms and banks

#327

Post by LordDragonfang »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #325
valzam wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This partly exists. But could of course be much simpler to use: 1) some banks/fintech offer virtual cards. For example, whenever I need to pay with credit card at a site that seems to be using some homegrown system I create a new virtual card in transferwise and destroy it right after. 2) I've seen banks offer virtual cards with CVC codes that change every 24h hours.

Re 1), virtual cards are useful if you can get them (banks that I use stubbornly refuse to provide them; same story with subaccounts). But it feels like doubling-down on the bad mental model. Cards make sense in meatspace, not on-line. Virtual cards are stretching the analogy already. Short-lived virtual cards are pushing it to the limits. What users need is the ability to generate single-use payment authorization to…

You talk about "users" as if the majority of people are tech-literate. They are not. Imagine explaining to your parents what a "single use digital token" is. Now imagine explaining "it's a card that you only use for this".

Outdated/meat-space abstractions are useful for both driving adoption and getting laypeople to understand intuitively what you mean. And beyond that, most of us encounter dozens of them a day without blinking. Think about that the next time you check your electronic mail on your general-purpose computing device you call a "phone".

Re: The real OnlyFans scandal is the unaccountable power of platforms and banks

#328

Post by LordDragonfang »

Clewza313 wrote: post #224
chmod600 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, but why do they move in lockstep? Is it a conspiracy among elite banks (or whatever other businesses)? Or is it a rational response to their political vulnerability? Or something else?

It's a rational response to the extreme social, political, financial and potentially criminal risks associated with profiting off content that may be identified as child pornography or sexual assault. The Traci Lords case is a good illustration of this. One day everything is order, the next somebody realizes she used a fake ID and bam, everybody involved is suddenly manufacturing/profiting off/in possession of child…

Nobody makes these kinds of arguments about why payment processors are afraid of Ebay selling potentially stolen goods or Amazon selling (lots of) potentially counterfeit merchandise. Or rather, they don't have to, because payment processors are perfectly willing to turn a blind eye to those kinds of crime. And before you say it's about risk to children, the global market is perfectly willing to do business with companies that continually have child slavery scandals.

Yes, there are legal risks involved, but at the end of the day, the main reason why sex work gets hit so much harder than any other type of legal enterprise is because the people in charge see nothing to be gained by standing up for sex workers.

Re: The real OnlyFans scandal is the unaccountable power of platforms and banks

#329

Post by valzam »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #325
valzam wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This partly exists. But could of course be much simpler to use: 1) some banks/fintech offer virtual cards. For example, whenever I need to pay with credit card at a site that seems to be using some homegrown system I create a new virtual card in transferwise and destroy it right after. 2) I've seen banks offer virtual cards with CVC codes that change every 24h hours.

Re 1), virtual cards are useful if you can get them (banks that I use stubbornly refuse to provide them; same story with subaccounts). But it feels like doubling-down on the bad mental model. Cards make sense in meatspace, not on-line. Virtual cards are stretching the analogy already. Short-lived virtual cards are pushing it to the limits. What users need is the ability to generate single-use payment authorization to…

FYI Google Pay actually creates a new "credit card", i.e. a single-use token for every payment, something along those lines would probably be great if more widely adopted.

https://support.google.com/pay/merchants/answer/6345242?hl=e...

I agree with the other post that keeping meatspace terminology isn't bad. Offering a "Single use credit card" would be an easily understandable feature.

Re: The real OnlyFans scandal is the unaccountable power of platforms and banks

#330

Post by valzam »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #321
croes wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A payment processor is useless without the possibility to pay with a credit card. And that means you depend on Visa, Mastercard and Amex.

Bank transfers are still a thing, aren't they? And payment processors built around those? I can't recall when was the last time I paid on-line using my card . On that note, the whole reliance on cards for on-line feels like a stupid hack that got way out of control. A card is just a physical access token for the account - it shouldn't be reused on-line like this. You should be able to generate per-payment tokens on d…

That being said, there are several initiatives that can hopefully challenge the visa/mc hegemony:

https://payid.com.au/ is gaining wide adoption in Australia. It seems like Australia has abandoned their homegrown payment rails (EFTPOS) in recent years and all bank cards are actually visa/mc. But maybe with PayId on phones this will change again.

https://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/what-we-do/sepa-insta... is coming to Europe and hopefully will see similar adoption to PayID.

As mentioned often, America is behind the rest of the world by at least a decade but maybe they can leapfrog similar to developing markets.

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