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For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

economist.com

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Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#321

Post by Joeboy »

grawprog wrote: post #72

I dunno, for a group of people who seem to believe you're worth a ridiculous amount of money per hour, think of what your time is worth. You folks that make a living programming off exceedingly decent wages. You don't break your bodies every day, you're not forced to spend all day moving wood and metal, filling bags full of garbage, hauling shit that weighs 50+ lbs all day every day. You just gotta sit and think and…

Also done both, and agree that being a software dev is considerably easier, more pleasant and better paid than the kind of factory / admin work I did in my 20s.

I suppose whether I'm worth the money and whether I deserve the money are separate questions. Hopefully the answer to the former is yes, but I don't think I'm any more deserving of money than I was in my 20s, when I got paid a small fraction of what I make now.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#322

Post by darkerside »

velcii wrote: post #165
Cookingboy wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In fact, in technical discussion, not conveying too much emotion is a great advantage.. But I'd just like to remind you that even the most hardcore engineering company cannot possibly having only technical discussions. This really reminds me that how often HN miss the forest for the tree.

>But I'd just like to remind you that even the most hardcore engineering company cannot possibly having only technical discussions. Your point is not very clear, sorry. It seems that you have an emotional reaction to this topic, which seems to muddle your argument. May be take sometime to reflect and get back with more clarity?

If we were in a group, you would have noticed (or perhaps failed to notice) most people recoiling to your statement or giving you quizzical looks at your odd reaction to a valid point. The conversation would immediately shift away from the poor direction you took it, and towards something the group finds richer for discussion.

Here on the internet, we settle for letting you watch downvotes trickle in over time.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#323

Post by woutr_be »

fuzzylama wrote: post #304
woutr_be wrote: post #214

My company (a large multinational bank) (about 100K employees) introduce their "future way of working" back in April. This came after most of our offices in different regions working from home due to covid. Much to my surprise, this was actually pretty well thought out. This new way, would give people the flexibility to choose wether they work from the office or work from home, or even combine both. (They also offere…

What is that 750 USD supposed to cover? - Monitor - PC/ laptop - desk - chair ... either one of those things can cost as much as that

You already have a company laptop, computer accessories can be bought through the company. So it’s mostly for desk and chairs.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#324

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

Cookingboy wrote: post #123
acituan wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new projects were the results of a casual lunch discussion even just random hallway chats When was the last time you've used a big corp product that so…

>They are doubling down on real estate because they have sunken costs, I'm pretty sure a company like Google that has no problem killing unsuccessful products after multi-billion dollar investments, knows how not to fall for the sunken cost fallacy. > execs themselves probably have serious personal real estate positions and As opposed to move to a different state, buy a house 3x the size for the same money, and save…

> I'm pretty sure a company like Google that has no problem killing unsuccessful products after multi-billion dollar investments, knows how not to fall for the sunken cost fallacy.

You're making the assumption that people behave rationally.

In actuality, rationality takes effort and as such, is rarely used.

We are irrational beings who are capable of rational thought, that doesn't mean that we always do.

Additionally, as you go up the hierarchy, people disagree with you less and less, which means that you start thinking that your ideas are better than they are.

Like, I fundamentally believe that pushing employees back to the office is not going to work out well for many companies, but they'll do it for emotional reasons rather than rational.

(And I say this as someone who misses the office).

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#325

Post by SynasterBeiter »

_wolfie_ wrote: post #299
ca01an wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, what sort of salary range would there be for engineers in your country?

For Czech republic, based on seniority and skill level I would say between ~$2.5k and ~$7k salary per month before tax. But you lose like a half to the various taxes.

That's why you're supposed to be a contractor at that pay level.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#326

Post by V-2 »

ca01an wrote: post #285
higeorge13 wrote: post #112

Most HN posts always compare with FAANG jobs and salaries, while there is a whole different world out there. For instance, in Europe and especially low-paid countries in the south or eastern Europe, i foresee zero chance that top talent will stay in their countries to be given low salaries for jobs with local/low impact. These people are already working or looking to work remotely to companies in richer countries (e.…

I'm curious, what sort of salary range would there be for engineers in your country?

The rates in Poland have really risen as of recent (so has the inflation, but that's a different story).

There's a lot of offers in the 120-150 PLN/h (26-33 EUR or 31-38 USD) range; not long ago I had three offers from the top of this range to choose from, and I eventually stayed at my current place since they equalled this rate.

And yes this is wage per hour, because self-employment/B2B is highly popular in IT, for financial and fiscal reasons. After all the deductions, you'd pocket roughly 70% of it.

Once you factor the living cost in: eg. "you would need around 2,827.20€ in Warsaw to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with 5,670.18€ in London (assuming you rent in both cities)" (according to Numbeo), it becomes pretty clear how living and working in Poland can be an attractive deal.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#327

Post by yodsanklai »

lexapro wrote: post #307
yodsanklai wrote: post #261

I'm surprised so many people are so angry about the pay cut. Using my company's simulator, the pay cut seems to be at most 15% of the base salary and most likely less than that. In my case, considering cost of living, it would certainly be most advantageous to work remotely. I would save more money and live in a much nicer place.

So everyone living in a city should have to move to a cheaper area because their pay was cut for no reason? If anything the company should be paying more, because they save money on office space which now the employee is covering.

That would happen if there's no pay cut. Why would I live in NYC, Hong Kong or London if I can get the same salary and live like a king in a cheaper country?

The pay cut will not apply to people working remotely in an expensive city (at least it doesn't in my company)

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#328

Post by CalRobert »

yodsanklai wrote: post #261

I'm surprised so many people are so angry about the pay cut. Using my company's simulator, the pay cut seems to be at most 15% of the base salary and most likely less than that. In my case, considering cost of living, it would certainly be most advantageous to work remotely. I would save more money and live in a much nicer place.

A pay cut makes a lot of sense. Without it you're less competitive. I currently work for a decent size US company from Ballynowhere in the middle of Ireland and I'm a lot more competitive in part because my cost of living is roughly €0. Meanwhile someone in SF needs $150k just to keep the lights on.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#329

Post by smorgusofborg »

caskstrength wrote: post #318
smorgusofborg wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I would want to manage that. I mean imagine your 2 year search finds the Typescript and Rust DevOps engineer with six sigma black belt who uses Vue is familiar OracleDB and Azure and disagrees with your team's consensus on where one should work? Do they accept the job and get to cause a revote? Are key members of the team now paying more attention to how they might vote than anything else?

It has always been the case that if employee "disagrees" with management decision that their ass should be in the office 5 days a week, then they will have to find a new job. Now this could become up to consensus inside the team, which in my opinion is much better and fairer approach. BTW team doesn't have to chose between two strict options (WFH or office 5 days a week). Another options could be hybrid office work o…

> It has always been the case that if employee "disagrees" with management decision that their ass should be in the office 5 days a week, then they will have to find a new job.

Not really. You negotiate with a boss who has to consider how your deal will affect other's deals. The deal environment changed so the deals they need to make are going to change.

Everyone voting on the same deal that is compatible with all roles in a group and strikes everyone as fair to them is just a less ideal negotiation that will make arbitrary decisions when the group changes. (I.e. the manager wants everyone in office so they hire a lot of interns and juniors who vote that way for the local help they need.)

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#330

Post by yodsanklai »

rytis wrote: post #270
yodsanklai wrote: post #261

I'm surprised so many people are so angry about the pay cut. Using my company's simulator, the pay cut seems to be at most 15% of the base salary and most likely less than that. In my case, considering cost of living, it would certainly be most advantageous to work remotely. I would save more money and live in a much nicer place.

It's not about the actual numbers. It's the WHY. How come the company was ok to pay X when the employee was coming to the office, but now that the same employee is WFH (and thus may be saving some dosh) they are only entitled to 0.85*X? Presumably the said employee was producing a value of Y (where Y may have been > X). Has Y changed? If yes, then it's fair to do the reduction, but I doubt that is the case. It might…

WFH isn't why gives you a pay cut. It's working from a cheaper location. Should you work from home within commute distance of your office, your pay wouldn't be affected. In that sense current employees aren't punished. They are taking a pay cut in exchange of a new option that wasn't present in their initial contract.
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