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Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

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Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#321

Post by tambourine_man »

defaultname wrote: post #314
tambourine_man wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Run a study and then talk. It has been running for centuries. It’s called typography. Its rules are not arbitrary and legibility is the most important one. No need for scare quotes around readability. It’s a science. There’s a latitude of contrast ratio between which human eyes can comfortably withstand and discern tones. It varies across individuals, of course, but not as much as you might think. No human sees ult…

That is indeed fascinating, but has positively no bearing on someone's off the cuff perceived opinion about readability.

It’s not off the cuff. It uses the site’s background as it’s own and has to guesstimate what color the letters on top must have in order to remain legible.

Compare the job of this algorithm, having to deal with a crazy amount of possible color combo, to that of an experienced UX designer making just a dark and light theme, both thoroughly tested, and you can begin to grasp the trouble they’ve put themselves into.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#322

Post by 015a »

rpastuszak wrote: post #59

Am I the only person who likes this change? Normally, I’d have 4-5 tabs that I keep switching between fairly often and then 20-xx most of the time useless, de facto bookmarks. I use a keyboard shortcut with fuzzy find to pick the right one. Reclaiming the address bar space to cram more tabs on the screen is a marginal gain, at least in my case.

I'm with you. Here's what it comes down to: I use an internet browser maximized, usually. All monitors are wider than they are tall. Thus, vertical screen real estate is at a higher premium than horizontal real estate. Thus, control/chrome elements of the operating system, browser, etc should minimize vertical pixel usage in favor of horizontal usage in order to allow content to assume as many pixels as possible. E.g, move the operating system application/task bar from the default bottom of the screen to the left or right, integrate the address bar and tabs into the same vertical pixels, etc.

The reality is, I've never seen anyone stay productive with more than 5 or 6 tabs, not to mention battery and CPU utilization issues. The brain can only multitask so much, and none of the browsers are good at managing more than, say, a dozen tabs, so why not reclaim some vertical real estate and drop that number to six or so? If you really need the extra tab space (or, to see the full web address at all times, which is even more strange), I think that should be behind a Preferences option. Safari's design makes sense to me.

Of course, Safari probably wont make it configurable, but I hope we see this design trend also happen in Firefox, and while I won't opt for it, lets make it opt-out.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#323

Post by mixmastamyk »

bscphil wrote: post #303
reflectiv wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is basically what I tell people when they ask me why I put my start menu and task bar on the left side of the screen.

Exactly. Which to me is why the parent complaint is a bit silly. If vertical space is at such a premium on Mac laptops supposedly, why then does the default Apple UI [1] consume such an enormous amount of vertical space? This is many, many pixels more space than on Windows, where you only have the taskbar at the bottom. Apple's dock is much larger than the taskbar, in addition to having a global bar on the top! So I…

MacBooks have 16:10 screens, not 16:9, so there is a bit more room. I still hide the dock however.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#324

Post by tambourine_man »

beebeepka wrote: post #113
tambourine_man wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> …yet they're presented as if they're objective truths. Readability is objective. It can be measured. They keep bending themselves backwards to get out of a problem they inflicted upon themselves. A web browser should be readable first.

I know exactly what you mean. Your opinion is objective. Opinions you don't like are subjective. Sorry but this is how I read it. In my late years, there's little I fear more than such authoritarian claims. Not everyone sees things the same way. And I mean that in the most literal sense possible

I can’t quite understand if you agree with me or not, but there’s a way to avoid falling into the trap of endlessly delving into a philosophical discussion on the existence of an objective truth: test thousands of eyeballs. If lots of people find it hard to read, it’s garbage.

And this been done. There’s a minimum contrast that works for comfortable reading for most people. That’s not controversial, or at least, it shouldn’t be.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#325

Post by mixmastamyk »

beebeepka wrote: post #116
daniel_reetz wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. I hadn't thought of it this way, and I even go as far as using a second monitor in portrait mode.

I have been doing this ever since 16:9 became a thing, and have converted several people to this simple solution. Canonical had the right idea with Unity which not many people are willing to acknowledge

The Windows task bar has been movable since 95 I believe. I know because I moved it to the top in the old days. With Mate I keep the main panel on the left as well, however some widgets were not happy in vertical orientation until a few years ago.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#326

Post by kitsunesoba »

freediver wrote: post #279
yxhuvud wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why it makes it so strange that no browser designers seem to get that the way to go is to stack tabs in a vertical list instead of horizontally. It would use more space but the space is in less demand so it wouldn't matter anyhow. So until the browser designers get a clue I will be stuck with Firefox and the Treestyle tabs plugin which is the least horrible solution for people that use a lot of tabs.

If you are on Mac and want to try a new WebKit based browser, Orion comes with native vertical tabs. https://browser.kagi.com

Just so you're aware, I believe the form validation on your beta signup sheet is messed up. I'm unable to submit the form under Safari and Chrome.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#327

Post by sys_64738 »

reflectiv wrote: post #82
rubyist5eva wrote: post #74

I vehemently disagree that vertical space used is negligible. Due to standard aspect ratios, the vertical space of the display is at a premium. 1920*1080 means you have 840 less vertical pixels than horizontal - it makes a lot of sense to me to try to reclaim some of that space for actual content instead of widgets.

This is basically what I tell people when they ask me why I put my start menu and task bar on the left side of the screen.

Do you use Mac laptop apps in fullscreen mode? That's what I do so the dock auto-hides. I do however keep the start menu on the right for Windows.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#329

Post by zapzupnz »

shinycode wrote: post #302
Bud wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things like the tab bar and the reload button are not mere "widgets"; they are the core UI elements. They are the single most important part of the app. This is simply a bad call. I'm all for saving vertical space whenever possible. But this is a bad call.

I CMD+R every time and I guess for the amount of time people reload it’s not costly to learn it …

In usability heuristics, that's called an accelerator. We would normally call it a shortcut. Whatever you call it, the point is it's an alternative to doing it in a more accessible way, not THE way.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#330

Post by imbnwa »

rubyist5eva wrote: post #74

I vehemently disagree that vertical space used is negligible. Due to standard aspect ratios, the vertical space of the display is at a premium. 1920*1080 means you have 840 less vertical pixels than horizontal - it makes a lot of sense to me to try to reclaim some of that space for actual content instead of widgets.

Does anyone else not just use spatial browsing on OS X with Safari? Its the best browser for that. I almost never use the tab bar but will have multiple windows open and I can just three-finger swipe down on my touchpad to get exposé for all my open Safari windows and can visually identify a page versus the sliver of nothing Chrome for example gives you with tons of tabs open
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