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Why we should end the data economy

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Re: Why we should end the data economy

#321

Post by contravariant »

SonicScrub wrote: post #53
brokencode wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anybody know if targeted ads based on tracking even work? Are they worth all the extra cost and complexity compared to traditional ads? It doesn’t seem like it. Half the time I see a super-targeted ad, it’s for a product I already purchased. Also, what ever happened to showing ads to people who aren’t already interested in your product to expand your brand and maybe bring in new customers? The current ad model f…

Yes, yes they do work. That's why it's a billion dollar industry. It allows industries to micro-target specific ads for communities and speak to them directly. It gives you more ability to expand your brand to new customers, not less, as it allows to you to specifically target niche groups who previously had no interest in you. It's important to get a sense of the extreme level of refinement that firms have access to…

Nothing of what you stated supports the theory that it works, you've only shown that people are willing to pay for the ability.

In the end I guess it boils down to whether you trust advertising companies to only help their customers sell stuff that nobody needs.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#322

Post by contravariant »

Barraketh wrote: post #42

Honestly, I'm kind of sick of how bad a rap advertising gets. Now sure, companies knowing a lot about your personal life is creepy on an intuitive level, but the fact of the matter is that cookie tracking data has NEVER been associated with any leak or data breach that resulted in personal harm. The thing people SHOULD be worried about is stuff like the Experian leak, where credit companies collect your non-anonymize…

Sure I'm not particularly worried about cookies, where I control where the data is stored, what's in it, for how long, and who gets access.

Now if I had the same degree of control over all of my personal data we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#323

Post by shiredude95 »

infogulch wrote: post #65

Somehow organizations get an immense amount of value out of tracking everything you do, say, think, and buy; everywhere you go; and everyone you meet. Two questions: 1. Why should they profit off of my data without my consent? (Hint: they shouldn't.) 2. Why is it so hard for me to get value out of it? Shit, if it's gonna be collected, aggregated, and analyzed anyway, I should just do it my damn self and actually get…

value is in aggregation across the board, not at an individual level. a single signal is hardly a reliable metric

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#324

Post by Pokepokalypse »

maybelsyrup wrote: post #266
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No one sane would ever want their relatives // People close to you probably know all these things already. Even if you don't. >No one sane is OK with corporations, governments, and other third parties being able to obtain and save this information either // This is a popular view here. I don't think it's true of the population as whole.

> This is a popular view here. I don't think it's true of the population as whole. I think you're right. They can get to the point where they care, but my intuition is that it'd take a real crisis, and even then there's plenty of incentive with this topic to move on as fast as possible. We (the public) are pretty fickle, and it's psychologically threatening to admit we've had a voyeur living in our bedroom for a deca…

It could be argued (pretty convincingly) that the collection of PSYCHOMETRIC data, (like what Cambridge Analytica did in 2011-2015; via innocent-seeming "personality quizzes" on social media - then the weaponization of that data by foreign intelligence services to target ads directly at people with certain personality types, in order to subvert the democratic election process on a massive scale, in order to affect a nation's foreign policy, and therefore the strategic balance of powers in the world - does, indeed represent "a real crisis".

(the real horror here, is they only had to sample a small subset of social media users, then compare their profiles with everyone else via "likes" and whatnot to develop accurate personality profiles of users who had no fucking idea they were being profiled because they never took a personality test).

I assume that data like that, unless refreshed, gets stale and useless fairly rapidly. But holy shit we're just sitting here, blind to the dangers of this data collection.

Or it could be as mundane as Russia's CozyBear group hacking a Ukrainian app store to insert malware into popular messaging apps, and using that app installed on a Ukrainian soldier's phone to direct artillery fire. Maybe THAT'S "a real crisis"?

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#325

Post by Pokepokalypse »

z77dj3kl wrote: post #320
pezezin wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how fast you drive, even if you don't have a smart car, because your phone contains an accelerometer Minor nitpick: you can't measure speed with an accelerometer, at least not with a cheap one like the one in your phone. I mean, in theory you can numerically integrate the acceleration to get the speed, but in practice the noise will be so big as to render the result useless after a few seconds. It's much better to…

I'm pretty sure it'd be easy to at least fingerprint/classify your "driving style" given enough of even crappy accelerometer data.

TBH it's very routinely done with onboard GPS tracking instruments which also have accelerometers, (or apps running on phones) - used by insurance companies, car rental agencies, and other fleet operators.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#326

Post by herunan »

If only it were about advertising… Your attention is everything. Even beyond buying things or not. Your views about certain aspects of your life are affected by your senses and experiences, and so much comes from what you see, hear, and read online. Your data informs a lot of what ends up in your screen, which keeps shaping who you are. This vicious circle is what I call losing agency in the digital age. Are you OK with losing your individuality? What makes you… you? That’s my reason towards privacy.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#327

Post by matz1 »

fuckyouriotshit wrote: post #234
matz1 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't think that means we don't need privacy. It absolutely has value. I never heard any convincing argument about why privacy has value. >but that doesn't mean we should allow everything to be collected. Why ?

> I never heard any convincing argument about why privacy has value. You have either _never_ had to keep a secret (which I highly doubt, unless you happen to be a literal child) or you simply aren't arguing in good faith. Assuming that you are arguing in good faith, let's consider a potential reason why someone might value their privacy: Some people are born attracted to the same-sex (gay, lesbian, bi, pan, etc.). Th…

>There are some countries where being gay is a criminal offense;

So that is the actual problem, not the privacy.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#328

Post by matz1 »

deep-root wrote: post #214
matz1 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't think that means we don't need privacy. It absolutely has value. I never heard any convincing argument about why privacy has value. >but that doesn't mean we should allow everything to be collected. Why ?

Perhaps you'd like some privacy to surprise a significant other with your purchase, rather than it show up on their Venmo feed in real-time.

Good example but there so much information a person can keep up with so surprise can still possible.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#329

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

Pokepokalypse wrote: post #324
maybelsyrup wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a popular view here. I don't think it's true of the population as whole. I think you're right. They can get to the point where they care, but my intuition is that it'd take a real crisis, and even then there's plenty of incentive with this topic to move on as fast as possible. We (the public) are pretty fickle, and it's psychologically threatening to admit we've had a voyeur living in our bedroom for a deca…

It could be argued (pretty convincingly) that the collection of PSYCHOMETRIC data, (like what Cambridge Analytica did in 2011-2015; via innocent-seeming "personality quizzes" on social media - then the weaponization of that data by foreign intelligence services to target ads directly at people with certain personality types, in order to subvert the democratic election process on a massive scale, in order to affect a…

Yes, absolutely. Because in the general case: computers are more dangerous than guns.

You can literally do far more harm with data than with automatic weapons.

Because that data gives you access to narrow-band propaganda. Instead of hope-for-the-best broad messaging you can target specific groups with content, signifiers, and emotional tone that is known to be effective for them, and encourage specific collective beliefs and behaviours.

It's not even persuasion any more in the ad tech sense. When it's done by hostile troll farms or state actors with a covert political agenda it's literally psychological warfare.

IMO the industry needs to take a long hard look at itself and start asking questions about whether this is really where it wants to go.

Hacker culture has a benign, goofy, on-the-spectrum, somewhat arrogant but mostly harmless reputation.

The reality couldn't be further from the truth. Data collection and social media systems are psychological weapons. They're absolutely hostile to rational informed choice and participative democracy.

And given the temptation to abuse that power in various ways, we should be having more of a conversation about this than we have so far.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#330

Post by matz1 »

wyre wrote: post #226
matz1 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't think that means we don't need privacy. It absolutely has value. I never heard any convincing argument about why privacy has value. >but that doesn't mean we should allow everything to be collected. Why ?

People spend money on privacy. This gives it value. I don’t know anyone that would want to spend money on a hotel if there was a security camera in the room. I would get the more expensive room without the camera, probably go to a different hotel. Doctor and patient confidentiality is implicitly understood. Do you think doctors should be able to tell advertisers what their patients are going through. Maybe your own i…

>I don’t know anyone that would want to spend money on a hotel if there was a security camera in the room

why do you think is that ?

>Do you think doctors should be able to tell advertisers what their patients are going through

Why do you think they shouldn't ?

>these corps profiting off data definitely find value in lack of privacy.

Yes of course there is value in lack of privacy, but what is value in privacy ?

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