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EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

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Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect there’s a strong case that universities are violating ADA and state equal-access laws if they’re using proctoring software that unfairly penalizes individuals with glasses, to say nothing of the issues raised by the potential of racially-biased AI. A few class action suits against state university systems might well be warranted.

Not defending Proctorio, but: As I understand it, the software results aren't directly used to penalize students. It just flags the situation for review by an actual human if the software doesn't have high confidence that the student is looking at the screen most of the time. That doesn't mean there isn't a violation here, of course.

Yes, that is exactly how it works (I TA for a class which uses it). Proctorio flags things it thinks are suspicious, and when we look at the video we usually find it was something innocuous (pets are a common culprit). We do find a few people actually cheating though so it definitely has its merits.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#322

Proctorio is on my red flag list. If any current or former employees of a flagged company apply for a job on my team I expect their reason for leaving to be for ethical reasons, or for them to tell me about how they had ethical problems with what the company was doing. If they don't I immediately remove them from the candidate pool.

I was an early employee at a Proctorio competitor. We actually beat them to market but they managed to get more market traction than we did.

In complete transparency, I left because I didn't get paid enough - not because of ethical reasons.

Just-out-of-college me was sold hard on the argument: "Good students who work hard and don't cheat are getting screwed over by bad students - cheaters. There is no solution for this in online classes. We need to build one"

In hindsight, it is crazy how long a simple argument, being ethical itself, can rationalize other shitty decisions and compromises. It's kind of like a religion or a cult when you are in it. Constantly surrounded by other people who are drinking the same koolaid as you. You might feel a little uneasy, but hive-mind grabs ahold of you and when you see other devotees to the company vision, it soothes that uneasiness. Which no...is not good.

It wasn't until I was no longer an employee that I saw things much more clearly. In the "name of justice", we built an unethical product that fucked over many students. Plain and simple.

You know the phrase.

The road to hell... Good intentions...

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's my solution to this: 1) Version control all assignments. I force them to make periodic commits throughout the week. If they want to copy a project wholesale, they have to do so in a way that takes a lot of time and effort. 2) Comparing bytecode. If they change the names of variables, comments, spacing, etc. these superficial differences will be lost in compilation. 3) Oral explanations. Now that everyone has g…

#1 just encourages people to make BS commits throughout the week to pad the numbers. Not everyone does projects over time, not everyone commits all the time. I don't like committing in progress work and I usually do work in big chunks with large breaks in between, especially for solo projects where I don't have to share code regularly with others. Based on your criteria, I'd likely be considered a "possible cheater"…

This is for a class. How a student prefers to make their commits is not really important. If you are taking a class and the requirement for credit is doing commits of in-progress work you commit the in-progress work.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a lot of interview advice that says your answer to this question can only ever hurt you, so be as bland as possible. Seems like terrible advice to me. If someone gives me bland answers I'll assume they're a bland person. > Some employers want compliant employees who don't rock the boat. Good for them, I do. I want people who are willing to stand up for what is right and say "no".

> Good for them, I do. I want people who are willing to stand up for what is right and say "no". See, the problem is you think you're selecting for ethics when in reality you're just selecting for how easily they can read you and the rest of the room.

That's all interview questions.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#325
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is silly. Make the exams open book and then the only thing you really need to worry about is the correct student taking the exam. If you're testing based on memorization of things in this day in age, then the course is useless.

Our university physics teacher allowed us to bring one-page self-made cheat sheet. By the time you compressed the essence of a whole course into a one-pager, you were pretty much done learning. :))

This was common in my engineering school too. I enjoyed creating the cheat-sheets more than any other form of studying, because what better way of learning three chapters of thermodynamics than having to distill them into 10 lines of text on a notecard.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#326
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone working at a high profile software company has problems paying bills? Yeah sure...

Even if nobody wanted to work for them, they'd just offer even better salaries until people did. Punish the politicians who allow this unethical software. Punish the CEOs and managers who make it happen. But don't punish the guys on the ground just making a living.

"Superior Orders" has been a tried and tested excuse - it doesn't work.

If your shitty software harms people you don't just get to throw up your arms and shrug.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#327

In case you don't know who Proctorio is: (like me) Apparently it's a supervision software that students are forced to install on their private computer and (as expected) it'll do its worst to invade your privacy and flag "suspicious" things, based on which the university might punish you. "Suspicious" here means wearing glasses [3] or looking around in the room or blinking too much [4] or having eye and/or skin color…

That's one of the reasons I wish more people would run Windows 10S or whatever the store only version was called. Or iOS. Can't install shady third party drivers, can't install stuff like that that mess with hypervisors (and anyways, every app kind of runs in a sandboxed process anyways) and your app can go in the background at anytime! Don't like it? Roll your own devices.

I really hope this was meant as a sarcasm. There are already banking apps and some mobile games (hello Pokémon GO!) pushing for trusted computing where the user is not in control and only a manufacturer OS image is installed. Not to mention game consoles that are like this by default.

We hardly need more entities pushing for this dystopia...

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#328

I conducted interviews at Google for about 8 years. I would often run across a fresh-from-college candidate who fell flat on their face, and all I could think was, "You've somehow managed to waste 4 years of your life and tens of thousands of dollars doing whatever it was you were doing for all that time." Some performed so poorly that I could only conclude that they cheated their way all the way through their progra…

Perhaps people get stressed in interviews? For instance, I don't code in C that often, and if asked, I'm not sure I could remember off the top of my head if the function signature is `memset(dst, value, n)` or `memset(dst, n, value)`. My guess from intuition is the first, but I would be hemming and hawing a bit if asked in an interview something like that. Also, many CS programs are easy enough that you'll never even…

From my personal experience (and that of many friends of mine) who interviewed at Google, you won't be asked about memset or any C-related question unless you stated you were proficient in C and picked C as your interviewing language.

Knowing this context might actually explain the situation that the parent comment describes a bit better. It is absolutely possible, as you described, to be perfectly capable within your CS niche without ever bothering with memset. But in that case, you probably won't pick C as your interviewing language and won't state that you are proficient in it. Which is what, I suspect, might have happened in that scenario the parent comment is describing.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#329
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would add some nuance to this view. For nearly every undergraduate course I agree - the ability of knowing where to look for resources in a particular subject matter, synthesizing the available information to solve a reasonably novel problem, and presenting the information in a coherent way is a skill/art that should be one of the primary goals of the education. For advanced degrees, though, I'm not so sure. I expe…

My experience with people who are PhD is that they know things you expect to memorize just because they use it a lot. They learn formulas or whatever not because they spend 5 hours memorizing it, but because they needed it once, so they looked it up. The second time they needed it, they weren't 100% sure, so they looked it up again just in case. Every time they search for it, they need it less and less and at the end…

There's a term for this and several software packages to help exploit the effect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_repetition

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#330

They should have just ignored this guy and gone on with life. Now the they got the EFF to deal with and it serves them right. There is another HN thread on this and a lot of people in it are more upset about the line of work Proctorio is in and how they do it than the fact they sued this minor irritating student. My opinion is there is simply no easy pain free way to do fraud auditing and that's that. I just recently…

Maybe catching a few cheaters here and there isn't worth implementing The Panopticon for everyone else.

The problem is that cheating (if allowed) does not end up being a few people here and there.
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