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India’s second wave

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Re: India’s second wave

#321

Post by KorematsuFred »

supernovae wrote: post #241
KorematsuFred wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was born poor. One american idea that does resonate with me after coming to USA is that a lot of poor people do not see themselves as poor. While their struggles are real they do not see themselves as losers but rather see themselves as strugglers who will eventually make it some day. They make life better for themselves and others. That was the case with my family. We lived in a house whose floor was basically pai…

There is a HUGE difference in accepting a dole because you're shut down for the survival of your species and can't work vs how you see yourself functioning in a society where you can work.

I do acknowledge the difference, what I am trying to highlight that perhaps dole is not what they want. Perhaps the poor people are not interested in staying indoors in return for dole and would rather risk their lives to seek things that value more than dole. It is not the lack of dole that is causing the failure of lockdowns.

Re: India’s second wave

#322

Post by briefcomment »

dtech wrote: post #69
collyw wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still a small fraction of what Europe has experienced. https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...

There are serious indications that India is under-reporting death count by a factor of 5-50x. Despite showing 5-10x lower death rate in your source, it was rare for European crematoriums have backlogs like in India [1] [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/india/non-stop-cremations-cast...

Isn't cremation the go to in India, but second to burials in places like Europe?

Re: India’s second wave

#323

Post by KorematsuFred »

sombremesa wrote: post #292
KorematsuFred wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was born poor. One american idea that does resonate with me after coming to USA is that a lot of poor people do not see themselves as poor. While their struggles are real they do not see themselves as losers but rather see themselves as strugglers who will eventually make it some day. They make life better for themselves and others. That was the case with my family. We lived in a house whose floor was basically pai…

> I was born poor. You can get out of being poor. You cannot get out of being dalit[0]. > While their struggles are real they do not see themselves as losers but rather see themselves as strugglers who will eventually make it some day. Only about 20% of Indians can afford to have even aspirations. About 66% cannot. 18% struggle to even survive. Newspaper? They would eat it. [1] (data from 2016) > They then propose th…

None of that you have stated is even remotely relevant to the discussion at hand but appears like a bait for some kind of flamewar. I will not take this bait.

> Should the same litmus test apply to your post about the Indian condition?

Obviously. But my post is about not making assumptions about what poor people want and rather trust that they have an agency.

Re: India’s second wave

#324

Post by KorematsuFred »

selimthegrim wrote: post #277
KorematsuFred wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was born poor. One american idea that does resonate with me after coming to USA is that a lot of poor people do not see themselves as poor. While their struggles are real they do not see themselves as losers but rather see themselves as strugglers who will eventually make it some day. They make life better for themselves and others. That was the case with my family. We lived in a house whose floor was basically pai…

Don't you need ration card to access PDS?

The whole thing is a sham. If you don't have ration card you can still buy it by paying a higher price to the 'dealer' who then secretly puts it under the account of someone else who is probably dead.

Re: India’s second wave

#325

Post by jasonfarnon »

sudosysgen wrote: post #279
alex_smart wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In a representative democracy, you wouldn't lock down and force people to starve - you would lock down and provide income/food/capabilities for people to live regardless of their social/economic status. I didn't realize that being a rich country with a developed economy was a pre-requisite to being a representative democracy.

Providing food is far from something only developped countries can do. Very poor countries can and have done so. All you have to provide is food, shelter, and maybe a very small baseline of income.

Which are the poor countries you have in mind? How long have they sustained that assistance?

Re: India’s second wave

#326

Post by estaseuropano »

KorematsuFred wrote: post #232
fareesh wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy is the system of elected representatives. You can elect a government that is completely opposed to welfare programs. India has some of the hardest working people in the world, and it's a shame the way many have been treated by government programs. Government handouts have created a culture in which many of the poor are at the mercy of corrupt bureaucrats just to get by. "What's that you say? Your rice allot…

I was born poor. One american idea that does resonate with me after coming to USA is that a lot of poor people do not see themselves as poor. While their struggles are real they do not see themselves as losers but rather see themselves as strugglers who will eventually make it some day. They make life better for themselves and others. That was the case with my family. We lived in a house whose floor was basically pai…

Not to diminish your experience, but you are an exception. Most poor people stay poor, no matter how hard they work.

And most poor people prefer free food over no food. You are right that most would prefer a dignified job and agency over their lives, but to say that people prefer to starve than to accept aid, or that it is just fine as a matter of policy to let people starve (or die of diarrhea as hundreds of indian children do each day as they don't have access to clean water) is just absurd. No one wants to watch their children die.

Again, i dont doubt your lived experience, but please do reflect on your views and whether they even remotely reflect reality.

Re: India’s second wave

#327

Post by ticviking »

sudosysgen wrote: post #281
habibur wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a dream. Money don't feed people. Foods do. And human activity necessary to feed a billion people sitting at home will require another billion to do the production, distribution and organization in a timely manner. And the whole point of lockdown was to prevent people from performing these movements. I don't see a good solution here.

This is really not the case. You buy food from farmers, who can keep money, and you use existing government capacity to distribute it. It's been done before and can be done still.

But then the laborers who process the food have to go to work. And often work in close quarters in factories where it's easy to spread the virus.

Re: India’s second wave

#328

Post by puranjay »

bongoman37 wrote: post #302
puranjay wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in Delhi right now and its truly bad over here. My neighbor was sick and we literally couldn't find a hospital bed for him that had sufficient oxygen. The system is breaking down. This is what they originally warned us about.

I know well connected people in Delhi who are advisors to the Health ministry and they are unable to find beds for their relatives. Things are truly fucked.

Yeah, have heard the same from friends - IAS officers are unable to find beds for their close family. Remdesivir is being sold at 20-50x retail price.

Re: India’s second wave

#329

Post by majoram »

InvertedRhodium wrote: post #304
majoram wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a horrible idea in today's social/political climate. Just try visualizing a police officer trying to arrest a black person for not wearing a mask. Or police being sent to gatherings in black neighborhoods. Sorry but I'd rather have more covid deaths than more riots and possibly a race war in my country.

Why would the color of their skin have anything to do with it?

It has everything to do with it when it comes to the U.S. If we were another country, maybe it would be acceptable to have police harrass people for not wearing masks. But in the U.S., giving police the license to harrass people minding their own business will inevitably result in more police brutality that affects some races more than others.

Re: India’s second wave

#330

Post by kzrdude »

briefcomment wrote: post #322
dtech wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are serious indications that India is under-reporting death count by a factor of 5-50x. Despite showing 5-10x lower death rate in your source, it was rare for European crematoriums have backlogs like in India [1] [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/india/non-stop-cremations-cast...

Isn't cremation the go to in India, but second to burials in places like Europe?

cremation is the majority option in northern europe and UK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_cremation...
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