34% of remote workers would quit rather than return to full-time office work • Hacker News Board

Re: 34% of remote workers would quit rather than return to full-time office work

#321

Post by mym1990 » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 6:31 AM UTC

mulmen wrote: post #235

mym1990 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be a pretty black and white comment when in reality a lot of these points are very grey. Just because I ask you in person for help from time to time does not equate to me not contributing anything. Just because someone asks you for help in person does not mean you can't say 'no, can you try me at this time or send me an email detailing the issue'. Solving problems can be a siloed experience, but dependi…

> Just because I ask you in person for help from time to time does not equate to me not contributing anything. That's not what I said. My comment was about working in parallel and demanding immediate coworker input to advance. > Just because someone asks you for help in person does not mean you can't say 'no, can you try me at this time or send me an email detailing the issue'. The situation is not asking for help in…

I'm not a parrot that will recite word for word what you wrote. Yes you didn't say anything about silos, but signaling to people that their problems are never your problems is a great way to discourage that person sharing any more information with you. The different agile rituals are a great way to get broad understanding on whats happening, but they will never capture the small problems that come up during the time in between.

Asking for help in person is literally interrupting someone, no matter what they are doing because their attention has to be re-directed from whatever they were doing to you. So there is no meaningful difference between asking for help and interrupting to ask for help. But through social cues I can tell what level of concentration you might be on, and with some precision judge when a good time might be to check in. Hell, I will definitely be wrong some of the time, but that's just life.

The situation is obviously different for someone that is always co-dependent on others for getting work done.

Re: 34% of remote workers would quit rather than return to full-time office work

#322

Post by erik_seaberg » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 6:40 AM UTC

mym1990 wrote: post #321

mulmen wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just because I ask you in person for help from time to time does not equate to me not contributing anything. That's not what I said. My comment was about working in parallel and demanding immediate coworker input to advance. > Just because someone asks you for help in person does not mean you can't say 'no, can you try me at this time or send me an email detailing the issue'. The situation is not asking for help in…

I'm not a parrot that will recite word for word what you wrote. Yes you didn't say anything about silos, but signaling to people that their problems are never your problems is a great way to discourage that person sharing any more information with you. The different agile rituals are a great way to get broad understanding on whats happening, but they will never capture the small problems that come up during the time…

I can ask my team’s channel for advice, and someone who is not currently deep in concentration will see it pretty quickly. This often works late at night, which in-person did not.

Re: 34% of remote workers would quit rather than return to full-time office work

#323

Post by mym1990 » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 6:42 AM UTC

mulmen wrote: post #219

Closi wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "As my coworker you have no right to my time, at all. Certainly not on-demand. You are in no position to prioritize my time, especially in the context of you finishing your task. You are blocked by whatever you are blocked by. Solving your problems is your problem. Not mine." What part of this statement says 'team player' to you? The whole part about working as a team-player is that solving their problems is your p…

> What part of this statement says 'team player' to you? The part where each member of the team is trusted with their own time management. I will also not interrupt you when you are working, because I respect you and your time. > The whole part about working as a team-player is that solving their problems is your problem, because it is the teams problem. Yeah, no. The team has problems so we divide the work. Each of…

'because I respect you and your time' screams that you are probably good enough at your tasks to not need help or too proud to ask for it, but you want others to apply this rule so that they can stop 'interrupting' your 'productive work'.

I have never ever gone into a team environment and felt the need to earn respect from my teammates or have them earn mine. This is a glass half full or empty thing. You can go into a team and require others prove themselves and vice-versa or you can give people the benefit of the doubt and let them lose the trust if something happens. Both lead to vastly different experiences.

Re: 34% of remote workers would quit rather than return to full-time office work

#324

Post by mym1990 » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 6:48 AM UTC

mulmen wrote: post #112

benbristow wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm talking more about if I've got a story where something isn't clarified properly. The project I'm on at the minute, the stories really aren't well refined at-all so I need to talk to a project manager/architect-style character for something that I can't answer myself because I simply don't know. I've said things about doing refinement sessions etc. but they've never surfaced. What you say sounds pretty selfish tho…

It's not selfish at all. I treat other people the same way. I am eager to help teammates with their problems and frequently do. If they have a question they can send me an IM or email and I will respond when I have time to answer. Interrupting other people to solve your problems is selfish. If you need clarification then send an email, add a comment in your issue tracker or set up a meeting. There's no reason to inte…

I think I get it now. You're basically who Gilfoyle was representing in SV! It makes sense now

Re: 34% of remote workers would quit rather than return to full-time office work

#325

Post by Scarblac » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 10:06 AM UTC

duckfang wrote: post #214

Scarblac wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why only have life outside of work, and not both?

Because your "family's parents" (aka: managerial class) have absolutely no compunctions about firing you at the drop of a hat, and thus evicting you from your "work family". I'm not saying to be rude - be nice obviously... But these people, you included, are working for money at a place that has money. And I would much rather have the time and socialize at events and places that aren't related to a work function. In…

I don't live in the US, I won't be fired at the drop of a hat.

They managers and colleagues are also just people I spend a lot of time with. I know a lot about their private lives and they about mine. I could work at other companies doing similar things for similar income but I stay at this one because I believe in the things it's trying to achieve with its products (not very successfully yet, but I do what I can to improve things...), and so do my colleagues.

And yes, it all happens against a background of making money, but it's also a huge social thing. The two aren't opposites.

I actually did leave this job at one point, still got invited to the company barbecue, and when my new job didn't go so well (didn't click with the culture there) and a few other programmers had left the old job, I got asked back and did. There are several ex-colleagues I still have contact with.

I lead a boy scouts group, during summer camp last year we weren't allowed to go in public pools because of Covid, so I asked if we could use the pool at our founder's house because it was in the same area, and he thought that was a great idea so we did.

In the end it's people you spend a lot of time with, of course it's social.

(company size ~80 people, 20 years old)

Re: 34% of remote workers would quit rather than return to full-time office work

#326

Post by ebrenes » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 12:20 PM UTC

dzhiurgis wrote: post #282

tezzer wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several do, the few times I've gone into the office and done a little problem solving with the folks who were there, we accomplished like a week of work in an hour. There's something about putting heads together that's hard to replace. Some of our folks have always been ~90% remote and that's fine, but I think they're missing out on one of the joys of engineering.

IMO companies should pay less people like you as your preferences incur more costs. Alternatively you could hire a co-working hub if you prefer that, but such costs shouldn't be passed onto people who ARE able to control their emotions and work/life balance.

That's really regressive. My sister-in-law works for HPE and she instead got a work from home bonus added to her paycheck. Instead of having companies offload their costs to employees like some late-stage capitalist dystopia they should compensate employees for providing the infrastructure themselves.

In some jurisdictions this is actually required, if the company is to expect any level of service or availability from infrastructure on the employer's home. For example, if your personal internet fails you cannot be held liable or at fault by an employer, since they're not paying for that. And if they pay for it, then it's on them to fix it since it's the service they provided (just like it's not an employee's fault if the internet gets cut at the office).

Re: 34% of remote workers would quit rather than return to full-time office work

#327

Post by ebrenes » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 12:27 PM UTC

dokem wrote: post #199

aroundtown wrote: post #132

Give me a dedicated office with a door that can shut, allow me to commute during off-peak rush hours, and raise my pay or shorten my work hours for the same rate... then we will talk about coming back in. Currently: I have an dedicated office at home, I can shut my door and work when I need to be distraction free. I don't have my head pinched by headphones for hours, and I can work in silence like I prefer. No cowork…

I switched to a job where I have an office for the first time and it really makes me question HTF open layouts have cough so much traction among employees. I think there was a push away from 'boring' offices and now no one even remembers or knows what having an office is like. I also don't buy the idea that there is really any hindrance to collaboration or casual socialization around the office. And no more packing u…

That no one remembers what it's like having an office is the system working as intended. The open office layout is meant to reduce costs as it's cheaper to cram more people in fewer square meters of physical space. It's also cheaper to reorganize teams/furniture in an open office layout.

Plus, it allows managers to look over their demesne unimpeded.

Re: 34% of remote workers would quit rather than return to full-time office work

#328

Post by decafninja » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 1:02 PM UTC

mym1990 wrote: post #317

decafninja wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually that time is "spent" either on: 1. Catching up on lost sleep because I had to wake up early to waste that time on commuting to the office. 2. Being wasted from a tiring day at work and not in any mood to do anything "productive" on transit, which itself further adds to fatigue and exhaustion. As a bonus, you also get to roll the dice on whether you even get to sit. Whether it's 30 minutes or 90 minutes, holdi…

Yes, there are many people in situations where there is a constant domino effect of negative stressors that prevent being in a 'productive commuting mood'(having a baby for example, disorders, disabilities). But if you're in a perpetual state of exhaustion from mainly your job and 30 minutes on a train is putting you in the ground, I would go on a limb and say you're not just wasting the 22 days, you're wasting a who…

In my particular case, it's a 45-60 minute bus ride + a 20-30 minute subway ride. Odds are that I'm much more likely to be standing than sitting, so it is definitely not an enjoyable or relaxing experience.

The only way I can avoid it is to leave home much earlier (see my earlier comment about losing sleep because of the commute as it is) and/or leave work much later.

Or move closer to work at the cost of much higher housing expenses for a place that is smaller and older.

Or - something which I'm trying to do - leave for an entirely different metropolitan area. I've had ex-coworkers and friends who've left the Manhattan commuting hellhole for the SFBA and tell me their commutes are a heavenly 15-30 minute relaxing drive now.

Re: 34% of remote workers would quit rather than return to full-time office work

#329

Post by the_af » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 1:23 PM UTC

silicon2401 wrote: post #265

the_af wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstood my point about spouse and kids: it wasn't about getting away from them, but about juggling work with kids vying for attention -- how do you explain a 2 year old that daddy has to work and cannot play with her for a few hours, and that she must stay locked in because there's a lockdown outside? -- and a couple sharing very limited space working at the same time (just think of Zoom meetings!).…

> I think you misunderstood my point about spouse and kids: it wasn't about getting away from them, but about juggling work with kids vying for attention -- how do you explain a 2 year old that daddy has to work and cannot play with her for a few hours, and that she must stay locked in because there's a lockdown outside? -- and a couple sharing very limited space working at the same time (just think of Zoom meetings!…

> Just buy a headset with a mic.

One more thing: we both use noise cancelling headsets. Believe me this isn't enough for two people holding Zoom calls at the same time if located in the same room.

Also: local internet connections suck. There's no way out of this because every provider sucks. I've called tech support during the pandemic multiple times, and they are clueless. I suppose they just cannot cope with so many people working remotely -- though they do manage to raise the price of my plan regularly!

Re: 34% of remote workers would quit rather than return to full-time office work

#330

Post by randomdude402 » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 2:18 PM UTC

alephu5 wrote: post #142

ptmcc wrote: post #20

I don't believe it. I do believe that 34% of polled workers said they would quit rather than return to the office, but I do not believe even a majority of them would actually go follow through on that threat. Especially if you filter out high paid/high job-security developers and similar people who might have the financial security to do so. People, particularly Americans, are shackled to their jobs for many reasons…

I'm just a sample of one but I literally did this. My employer started forcing us back into the office as soon as it was legally permitted. We were only allowed to be at 30% capacity, so management ensured that this quota was always filled. We were all complaining about unnecessary risk to personal and public health. We couldn't even take advantage of the office, we were doing everything through Google meet anyway be…

I was interviewing recently, and I asked everybody explicitly about remote. Any places that have wishy-washy answers or seemed enthusiastic to get software devs back into the office, I didn't continue with.

I have no way to know if I influenced anybody's thoughts or actions, but I communicated to everybody involved that I'm only interested in remote work, and told them that others I have spoken to feel the same.

That's not strictly true, I do know some folks that are looking forward to getting back to the office, but I tried to do my part anyway.

I think in a couple years we will be back to a pretty high percentage of positions being onsite. Right now there is a small window of time to really drive home the idea that there is a sizable group of folks who will refuse to commute to an office, and hopefully at least influence the number of future remote opportunities a little bit more in our favor.