Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS • Hacker News Board

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#321

Post by clairity » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 5:10 AM UTC

martimarkov wrote: post #316

clairity wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you'd still have the apple ios store so you wouldn't lose any of that walled garden if you prefer it.

Yea but if you have another store you kinda lose it. Anyone could get tricked to install/sideload an app or enable the other stores. So in fact you’re be losing the walled experience

i wouldn't count out network effects so quickly, which apple has in spades, to keep people, especially non-technical folks, on their app store as a default (and usually only) option. that's incidentally how google became the default (and often only) search engine without having any substantive lock-in early on.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#322

Post by GeekyBear » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 5:11 AM UTC

greggman3 wrote: post #311

GeekyBear wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You want to talk about a criminal abuse of market power? Microsoft used to charge ridiculous fees for things as simple as submitting a patch for an XBox 360 game. >Double Fine's Tim Schaefer pegged the cost of submitting an Xbox 360 patch at $40,000 in an interview with Hookshot Inc. earlier this year. "We already owe Microsoft a LOT of money for the privilege of being on their platform," he said. "People often mista…

I don't know the specifics of Xbox and patches but I do know that in general, at least in the past, shipping a game on Playstation required thousands of hours of testing by Sony employees. They didn't take your word for it that your app worked. They ran it through a battery of manual testing. Examples, does it recover if someone turns off the power in the middle of saving a game. At that point the save game file may…

What does that have to do with submitting a simple bug fix?

How can that possibly cost $40,000 except through an extreme abuse of monopoly power?

A simple 30% cut with no other price gouging additional fees was a huge improvement over the status quo.

That article has a developer literally saying that in the end, their percentage of the profit on the XBox 360 was a negative number.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#323

Post by GeekyBear » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 5:22 AM UTC

greggman3 wrote: post #313

MobileVet wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have worked in mobile since 2004. How anyone felt about it is irrelevant. The fact is that 30% was far less than the carriers and Qualcomm were taking with their stores.

the iPhone is a PDA. There's 20 years of PDAs before iPhone. There was no price to put an app on my 1998 Windows CE PDA, nor my Sony Clie, nor my Dell Axim. Just install the software same as PC. The software vendors had the option to sell direct, go through a distributor, a publisher, various stores, etc..

Phones were an entirely different world.

For instance, Verizon was sued for disabling the ability of phones on their network to transfer photos using Bluetooth, because they wanted to charge you money for a simple file transfer.

https://www.eweek.com/mobile/verizon-wireless-users-sue-over...

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#324

Post by martimarkov » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 5:39 AM UTC

clairity wrote: post #321

martimarkov wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea but if you have another store you kinda lose it. Anyone could get tricked to install/sideload an app or enable the other stores. So in fact you’re be losing the walled experience

i wouldn't count out network effects so quickly, which apple has in spades, to keep people, especially non-technical folks, on their app store as a default (and usually only) option. that's incidentally how google became the default (and often only) search engine without having any substantive lock-in early on.

Sure I agree with that completely. But firstly that wouldn’t solve the issue for developers as then the arguments will just shift that other app stores should come preinatalled and later will shift it again (developers will never be happy with any percentage but also the review process does cost money, in app transactions infra as well), and secondly it increases the attack surface for scams (just watching on YouTube how old ppl get scammed makes me a bit uneasy that my parents are getting close to that age). Thirdly I think Google search is a very good example. Do you remember back in the day all those installers that had toolbars and would change your default search engine? I just don’t want us to open the door to anything remotely like that.

Honestly I think if maybe allow sideloading is an a setting available only for the iCloud family organiser to enable that mitigate most of my use cases.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#325

Post by kiwijamo » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 5:44 AM UTC

jiggawatts wrote: post #295

ProfessorLayton wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YMMV, but as much as I like Apple Maps and use it as much as I can, for the more complex/unknown routes I definitely rely more on Google Maps to get it right. I don't know if telemetry is the cause for the better service, but it is noticeably better for me. Separately, I'm also a google customer as I run an Ad campaign for a small business (skilled labor), and the dollars spent on search ads are extremely efficient w…

Just quickly comparing Apple Maps and Google Maps: There is no Apple Maps web page. With Google I can do a complex route plan on my PC and my phone will have the "recent searches" in it ready to go when I get in the car. Apple Maps doesn't show how packed the trains are. Google Maps shows me how full individual train carriages are! Apple Maps can't provide cycling directions in my area (a world city!), Google can. Ap…

I've found it varies by area to area. I switched from iOS to Android about a year ago and I miss Apple Maps. Apple's mapping and navigation is better here in New Zealand compared to Google. Overseas I've found that different services have strengths/weaknesses in different cities/areas.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#326

Post by ogre_codes » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 5:45 AM UTC

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #4

" Modern cars regularly send basic data about vehicle components, their safety status and service schedules to car manufacturers, and mobile phones work in very similar ways." -Google This is a beautiful quote because it is an example of one industry's bad behavior leading to another industry's bad behavior, upon which the first industry then users the second's similarity to justify themselves. Cars only started doin…

Apple didn’t establish the 30% cut. They kited the idea from console makers and other walled garden industries that came before them.

This doesn’t make it more defensible, but they didn’t create it.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#327

Post by emptyparadise » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 5:47 AM UTC

haukilup wrote: post #264

TechBro8615 wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linked PDF (direct link for the truly lazy [0]) shows that every few minutes Apple sends binary data to its servers which includes the MAC address of nearby devices. (It's unclear if these are only devices on the same network, e.g. from arp, or any nearby devices that are broadcasting a static MAC address). Here, I'll even quote it for you. It's on page 7 at the bottom left, continuing on the top right: > However…

Is that in any way related to the Covid framework/protocol that Apple provides?

Maybe it's this: https://developer.apple.com/find-my/

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#328

Post by emptyparadise » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 5:50 AM UTC

swiley wrote: post #64

1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #7

As users, we are assured that telemetry is only for the purpose of "improving products and services", "improving user experience", etc. If one company is collecting 20x as much as another, all else being equal, one would expect that this would be reflected in the quality of the product/service/experience. Of course, Google's service is to advertisers, first and foremost. Users generally do not pay for what they recei…

If telemetry is used for improving services then why does every project who's UI decisions are based on telemetry[1] consistently rebuild their UIs in less usable and less user friendly ways? [1] Pretty much anything from Mozilla or Google, Reddit, lots of others.

Because they're optimizing for some engagement metric and not user experience.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#329

Post by Mandatum » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 5:53 AM UTC

kiwijamo wrote: post #325

jiggawatts wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just quickly comparing Apple Maps and Google Maps: There is no Apple Maps web page. With Google I can do a complex route plan on my PC and my phone will have the "recent searches" in it ready to go when I get in the car. Apple Maps doesn't show how packed the trains are. Google Maps shows me how full individual train carriages are! Apple Maps can't provide cycling directions in my area (a world city!), Google can. Ap…

I've found it varies by area to area. I switched from iOS to Android about a year ago and I miss Apple Maps. Apple's mapping and navigation is better here in New Zealand compared to Google. Overseas I've found that different services have strengths/weaknesses in different cities/areas.

This must be a recent change because it used to be awful about 4 years ago. Regularly try and take me through roads that hadn't existed for a decade. Maybe worked around the city, but not outside or commercial areas.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#330

Post by kelnos » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 5:56 AM UTC

greggman3 wrote: post #313

MobileVet wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have worked in mobile since 2004. How anyone felt about it is irrelevant. The fact is that 30% was far less than the carriers and Qualcomm were taking with their stores.

the iPhone is a PDA. There's 20 years of PDAs before iPhone. There was no price to put an app on my 1998 Windows CE PDA, nor my Sony Clie, nor my Dell Axim. Just install the software same as PC. The software vendors had the option to sell direct, go through a distributor, a publisher, various stores, etc..

I think there's a lot of truth to this take. Pre-iPhone phones were a completely different category of phone. They ran limited, special-purpose operating systems. Smartphones of today are pocket computers that just happen to be able to make phone calls.

And yes, they connect to a wireless carrier's network. But I can also connect my laptop to a wireless carrier's network by buying a USB dongle and a SIM card. I'm certainly not expecting anyone to pay 30% of their revenue to sell me an app on my laptop.

Also consider the iPod Touch. It is much closer to being a PDA than a phone, despite the fact that it's essentially an iPhone without a cellular modem.