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Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

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321–330 of 410 posts

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much broken with modern universities and incentives around pricing - why are all degrees four years? Why does a classics degree cost the same as a CS degree when the market value of a classics degree is basically zero? I wrote a little about it in the context of Lambda School, but it mostly applies: https://zalberico.com/essay/2019/04/08/lambda-school.html “The current university system in the US is a mes…

You are correct about lending being the problem. Education is not a free market where capital is allocated in proportion to value that is created, because all of the loans are subsidized. And the government can’t put itself into a position where it subsidized some loans but not others based on the curriculum, because there would be public outrage. A long time ago I attempted to enroll in a nearby college to take some…

I've listened to lecture courses from The Great Courses (Teaching Company) on literature, history, music, philosophy, and science for 20+ years now. I get to learn what I want, at my own pace, etc. The lecturers are good, and I can replay or repeat lectures as I like. Many advantages of taking college courses without the hassles you ran into.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"from a lower or even mid-tier college is a worthwhile investment " I always found this idea amazing, we just accept that univerities are not really there for education but instead a giant sorting machine to separate plebs from (rich/talented/dilligent/take your pick). They don't work like a normal market, there best company grows their production, and supplies millions with the best goods. Oxford/Harvard take their…

>They don't work like a normal market, there best company grows theur production, and supplies millions with the best goods. Oxford/Harvard take their miniscule intake of a fraction of a percent every year, and opening door to unwashed masses would destroy their brand. This is exactly how high-end luxury good markets work.

Relatedly I read the top colleges try to get students they know they'll never admit to apply, because the more that apply, the more they can reject and the more selective they become.

Selectivity is a status symbol, so you want as many as possible to apply so you can reject as many as possible.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#323
post #7

I think this is generally a good thing. I believe there are really two positive things that can come out of going to college - either you get a name-brand degree that opens doors and gets your resume looked at, or you get useful skills that enable you to go down a particular career path (e.g. CS degree). Obviously in some cases it'll be both. The reality is it's really tough to make any case that a humanities degree…

"from a lower or even mid-tier college is a worthwhile investment " I always found this idea amazing, we just accept that univerities are not really there for education but instead a giant sorting machine to separate plebs from (rich/talented/dilligent/take your pick). They don't work like a normal market, there best company grows their production, and supplies millions with the best goods. Oxford/Harvard take their…

I heard an interesting analogy that universities are more like religions than businesses. If you factor out all the beliefs/rituals in religion and knowledge/education in universities, they are both human organizations that seek to prolong/maximize their existence, rather than to grow or maximize shareholder value like in companies.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#324
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t tell if things like this are real issues or “but think of the horse and buggy driver!” problems. We were teaching kids to read, ethics, morals, long before we had PhDs. Obsession with normalizing agency to abide fiscal concerns is the real issue here. Let wealth collapse by refusing to buy into the idea we owe deference to those that hold wealth. Teach the classics. Write open source. None of it has to be don…

" We were teaching kids to read, ethics, morals, long before we had PhDs. " I think I'd like some evidence for that.

The first PhD was awarded in France in 1150 CE.

Ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and even Pre-Columbus America had complex cultural customs, art, math, engineering, medicine, language they handed down generationally.

University as we know it is a relic of Medieval European tradition.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much broken with modern universities and incentives around pricing - why are all degrees four years? Why does a classics degree cost the same as a CS degree when the market value of a classics degree is basically zero? I wrote a little about it in the context of Lambda School, but it mostly applies: https://zalberico.com/essay/2019/04/08/lambda-school.html “The current university system in the US is a mes…

> Why does a classics degree cost the same as a CS degree when the market value of a classics degree is basically zero? Maybe I am deluding myself because my daughter has decided to get an expensive classics degree, but the most valuable skill one can acquire in college is how to communicate, particularly how to write well. The second most valuable skill is learning how to master complicated material. Each major teac…

While those skills are useful for life, they are "worth" nothing in the marketplace without the ability to sell yourself.

Ultimately a classics degree only limits her job options in the short term. An engineer can go be an engineer, or transition to anything a classics grad can be, assuming both can sell themselves equally well. (if we are assuming high quality white collar jobs that pay well and have good career prospects)

Of course, college brand name greatly contributes to "selling yourself", so an expensive classics degree from Harvard is at a significant advantage over an engineering degree from some no-name university for non-engineering roles.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much broken with modern universities and incentives around pricing - why are all degrees four years? Why does a classics degree cost the same as a CS degree when the market value of a classics degree is basically zero? I wrote a little about it in the context of Lambda School, but it mostly applies: https://zalberico.com/essay/2019/04/08/lambda-school.html “The current university system in the US is a mes…

> Why does a classics degree cost the same as a CS degree when the market value of a classics degree is basically zero? Maybe I am deluding myself because my daughter has decided to get an expensive classics degree, but the most valuable skill one can acquire in college is how to communicate, particularly how to write well. The second most valuable skill is learning how to master complicated material. Each major teac…

> It might be easier to get a high paying job right out of school with a CS degree, but the ability to communicate and the ability to learn will still pay dividends long after your technical knowledge is obsolete

This 100% - you said it better than I did.

It's the underlying concepts and meta-skills that stay with you, and most "knowledge worker" jobs - not to mention real life - depend heavily on communication and learning to master complexity.

Even in CS I'd say that while the technology quickly becomes "obsolete" the general concepts and ways of thinking (not to mention underlying math and theory) last a lot longer.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#327
Does anyone else feel that standardized tests are the most egalitarian and meritocratic metric in the admissions process? Removing them and claiming that it makes things fairer doesn't seem true to me.

The other three metrics (essay, grades, letters of recommendation) can be gamed/cheated. I'm sure standardized testing cheating happens, but it's so much more difficult, even for someone with connections.

Your grades are positively affected if your family can afford tutors for you, or if your parents are educated enough to tutor you themselves. You can have inflated grades that aren't reflective of your actual competency or knowledge. The inverse of this is also true. Bad grades don't provide any obvious information or signal on their own. Poorer students may be assigned to schools that don't have AP classes, so they don't even have the possibility of grade inflation.

You can have people help you write your admissions essay. Hell, you can have other people write it for you altogether. All of the wealth factors that influence GPA also influence your essay, if you actually write it completely by yourself.

Letters of recommendation seem to be the most exclusionary and biased of all. I actually think it's ridiculous that they're still allowed. There is no way to verify that they are true. They're grounded in connections and elitism. How is the average applicant even supposed to compete with letters from a politician, alumni, famous businessperson, or some other type of celebrity? A wealthy student's family can also pay for these in multiple ways, if, for some reason, the connections didn't already exist.

Meanwhile, the argument for tests being biased is that wealthier kids are able to prepare for them more than kids with less resources. But all of the other metrics tie to wealth as well, and every argument against standardized tests also applies to GPA. I'd even say GPA is influenced by wealth more than tests.

You can pirate expensive prep materials. You can PROBABLY find a volunteer tutor if you live in or near a college. But even taking the argument that wealthier children are at an advantage at full value, that advantage is still less than what is provided by the other 3 metrics.

I'm taking this a bit personally since I had an incredibly bad GPA in junior high and high school. I hated doing homework, and I hated sitting in lectures. I failed multiple classes because homework and attendance counted for so much of the total grade, that even 100%ing every quiz and test would still give me less than 60% in the class. The only thing that proved that I wasn't mentally retarded was my performance in course tests and standardized tests.

College went ok. I'm now doing better career-wise and financially than anyone I went to school with, including all of the IB kids who went to top-tier schools (with one exception, there's ONE other person on my level, because they went into finance and they're now an iBanker). I would have been completely screwed without standardized tests as a metric.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate on CS graduates getting turned down? I've seen how much trouble companies have hiring, so the only reasons I'm coming up with are these graduates aren't willing to relocate or they studied CS because it pays well, but they're not actually that good at it. Something very underappreciated, and possibly the cause of the classic CS class bimodal distribution, is how many students live the stuff outsid…

They came for the high school drop outs and I did not speak out... High school grads, College Grads, Liberal Arts Grads, Non-STEM Grads, Non-Tech Grads, and now here we are. They came for the average CS graduates and I did not speak out. How far do we have to get up the stack to notice we have a problem? Harvard Medical Grads?

Not sure if this reference really applies. If you're not good enough to do the job, you're not good enough to do the job. We do seem to be overproducing college grads, but I've heard nothing like that for CS grads.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#329
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t tell if things like this are real issues or “but think of the horse and buggy driver!” problems. We were teaching kids to read, ethics, morals, long before we had PhDs. Obsession with normalizing agency to abide fiscal concerns is the real issue here. Let wealth collapse by refusing to buy into the idea we owe deference to those that hold wealth. Teach the classics. Write open source. None of it has to be don…

" We were teaching kids to read, ethics, morals, long before we had PhDs. " I think I'd like some evidence for that.

Is that not obvious? Via the ancient Greek schools of philosophy for example?

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of this could be solved by Lambda School style ISAs. If the school isn’t actually good at education then it fails. True alignment of incentives.

This is fine for trade schools which can reasonably measure success by short term income of new graduates, but this is a terrible metric for higher learning in general.

It's certainly an imperfect metric, but I'm skeptical of the claims that there's a better measure for 'higher learning'.

Often when people say this, I've found they're really just using it as a proxy for status or prestige rather than education or critical thinking.

I agree with it in the abstract, but disagree with its use in practice.

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