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America's 1% Has Taken $50T From the Bottom 90%

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Re: America's 1% Has Taken $50T From the Bottom 90%

#321

Post by throwaway3699 »

throwawaysea wrote: post #125
klmadfejno wrote: post #18

"But poor people have iphones now" when people can't afford food, healthcare, or any leisure time is the 2021 equivalent of "Let them eat cake". The balance of wealth is insulting when we have so many basic needs not being met for those at the bottom "Stealing" is a word that gets knee jerk reactions. But the more polite way to phrase it is that the rich benefit from societal structure 1000x more than the poor and ar…

> "But poor people have iphones now" when people can't afford food, healthcare, or any leisure time is the 2021 equivalent of "Let them eat cake". The iPhone is a luxury product within a category of luxury products. No one needs a smart phone to be successful in life - you don't need it to educate yourself, to find jobs, to do work, to entertained, etc. It could be used for all those things, but it isn't a prerequisi…

I think people definitely need a phone. Maybe not an iPhone or even a computer, but access to email and internet is a must for applying to jobs, paying taxes or... finding out where to get Covid jabs.

It's the same way you don't need a car either, but you're going to struggle.

Re: America's 1% Has Taken $50T From the Bottom 90%

#322

Post by Dma54rhs »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #288
natenthe wrote: post #57

Correction: The Fed's policies have taken $50T of wealth from the Bottom 90%. When you bail out irresponsibly over-leveraged and nearly bankrupted banks and corporations, and pay for those bailouts with tax-payer money, you steal from the poor and give to the rich. Most importantly, when the Fed decides to print money ad nauseam, they create massive asset inflation, which steals from the poor and gives to the rich. T…

Correction: The 1% have manipulated the government to have obviously unfair political policies. They control advertising, media, and the government. I do blaim the rich, and it's from first principles. The only thing that ever puts a dent in it is grass roots efforts like BLM, unions, etc. We tried the gold standard, it is also a failure.

BLM was far from grassroots, Mueller investigation revealed us how it was propped up by Russian trolls. Heck they ran their biggest social media pages.

Re: America's 1% Has Taken $50T From the Bottom 90%

#323

Post by Apocryphon »

chordalkeyboard wrote: post #293
Apocryphon wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not require endorsement of the current leaders nor their system to recognize the very basic and banal fact that taxation is a valid mechanism that a society uses to sustain itself. This doesn't even require one to be in favor of specific current taxes, it's simply acknowledging that taxation as a principle is not some sort of ludicrously unjust abomination. Taxation predates central banks.

> very basic and banal fact that taxation is a valid mechanism that a society uses to sustain itself. Validity in this case is not a fact it is an opinion or value judgment that implies that it is moral/ethical to use coercion to extract money from citizens. You may agree with this. You may not claim it as a fact. > taxation as a principle is not some sort of ludicrously unjust abomination Thats your opinion and the…

> it is an opinion or value judgment that implies that it is moral/ethical to use coercion to extract money from citizens.

Sure, and it is an opinion or value judgment supported by millennia of social contract even before Enlightenment era thinkers came up with the concept of the social contract. If you're going against one of the basic mechanisms or tools for how society works, you might as well label yourself an anarchist. Which is fine, plenty of mutualist ideologies exist, but you should at least identify yourself so people will understand the very different ideological framework you're arguing from.

> Thats your opinion and the oligarchs who decide how tax money is spent appreciate your conformity.

And the puritans who dictate popular morality appreciate your conformity in wearing clothing. Again, people can oppose oppressive taxes and unjust tax systems, but to argue that taxes are unnecessary is seemingly arguing against all of human society since the development of agriculture. Unless you are a believer in Modern Monetary Theory? Good of you to realize the possibilities of fiat currency.

Re: America's 1% Has Taken $50T From the Bottom 90%

#324

Post by ashtonkem »

NittLion78 wrote: post #243
klmadfejno wrote: post #18

"But poor people have iphones now" when people can't afford food, healthcare, or any leisure time is the 2021 equivalent of "Let them eat cake". The balance of wealth is insulting when we have so many basic needs not being met for those at the bottom "Stealing" is a word that gets knee jerk reactions. But the more polite way to phrase it is that the rich benefit from societal structure 1000x more than the poor and ar…

I always found this graph enlightening, but strictly on its face: https://fee.org/media/17509/prices2-1.png?width=645&height=6... I don't agree with the argument FEE is trying to make: "Consider each product or service shown. College is heavily subsidized, regulated, and exclusionary, and the costs are soaring. The textbook industry is hobbled by extreme copyright regulation, and can depend on captive buyers. Childca…

Also, cars are a pretty well regulated industry, and it’s not like software and electronics aren’t impacted by copyright and patent issues.

This strikes me as a problem that escapes simple scapegoats.

Re: America's 1% Has Taken $50T From the Bottom 90%

#325

Post by fiftyfifty »

pydry wrote: post #11
bmmayer1 wrote: post #3

Ah yes, the famous cabal of 1 percenters sitting around and committing grand larceny as they raid the bank accounts of poor people. At least that's what this headline would have you believe. The reality is much more boring. Thanks to "math," they've determined that if the ratio of incomes from 1945-1974 held steady , the bottom 90% would have "more" than they do now. Of course the bottom 90% itself is a fantasy and y…

It's of little consolation having the price of your phone decline when the price of education, healthcare and a roof over your head have skyrocketed. Even if that were not the case, it's abundantly clear that geometrically increasing consolidated economic power is being translated into consolidated raw political power (which is zero sum). The events of the last few months and history in general have proved that this…

It's interesting that the 3 things you give as an example have sky rocketed in cost not because of the 1%, but mostly due to government interference in the free market. Government backed loans have driven up the cost of education and housing. Local governments limiting housing construction have further driven up the cost in many areas. Government created monopolies like the AMA have driven up the cost of healthcare.

Re: America's 1% Has Taken $50T From the Bottom 90%

#326

Post by learc83 »

tobmlt wrote: post #297
tylerhou wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Fed is stabilizing the price of the USD because of the coronavirus pandemic. If it were not printing money, then there would likely be a deflationary spiral that would cause a depression. That's one of the reasons why the Great Depression was so bad: the US was on the gold standard at the beginning. The US can't create gold out of thin air, so the USD started deflating, people stopped spending, and capital stoppe…

I appreciate your counter argument and am familiar with it. I disagree about the Great Depression and pretty much everything else you’ve said, but I mean no disrespect, only contend that there is a whole body of economic thought that agrees with me, and that mainstream Econ (recognizing the plurality of schools of thought here) has swept under the rug, because it’s inconvenient. I know “my side” is unpopular and “dis…

If you're talking Austrian economists, who are the primary proponent of the "fed is the bad buy, bring back the gold standard" argument, they explicitly reject any attempt at modeling or mathematical analysis. They are only interested in arguments based on "self evident" axioms.

I've read many of the books you're talking about, and there's a reason they are "unpopular" and “discredited".

Re: America's 1% Has Taken $50T From the Bottom 90%

#327

Post by NortySpock »

nostrademons wrote: post #285
quickthrowman wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When the pandemic is over, it will sell back these bonds the banks it bought them from. This remains to be seen, the market had an absolute fit when they said QE was tapering in 2013, and also had an absolute fit when Powell was raising rates in 2018, particularly in December. The Fed may have painted themselves into a corner here, nothing is certain with regards to unwinding QE or raising rates.

I've heard (from finance professionals) that big elephant in the room is corporate debt. Corporations need to roll over their debt when it comes due, and a fair amount of it is short-term paper. If interest rates rise, that debt will become a lot more expensive, which will make many of the more marginal companies insolvent. Not software companies, which are sitting on hoards of cash, but all of the ordinary manufactu…

So, we need to see loan-forgiveness for businesses then?

Trying to figure out how you unwind it slowly when apparently "slowing raising rates" still destroys many businesses with a lot of debt...

Re: America's 1% Has Taken $50T From the Bottom 90%

#328

Post by fat_pikachu »

NittLion78 wrote: post #243
klmadfejno wrote: post #18

"But poor people have iphones now" when people can't afford food, healthcare, or any leisure time is the 2021 equivalent of "Let them eat cake". The balance of wealth is insulting when we have so many basic needs not being met for those at the bottom "Stealing" is a word that gets knee jerk reactions. But the more polite way to phrase it is that the rich benefit from societal structure 1000x more than the poor and ar…

I always found this graph enlightening, but strictly on its face: https://fee.org/media/17509/prices2-1.png?width=645&height=6... I don't agree with the argument FEE is trying to make: "Consider each product or service shown. College is heavily subsidized, regulated, and exclusionary, and the costs are soaring. The textbook industry is hobbled by extreme copyright regulation, and can depend on captive buyers. Childca…

The things that have seen large price increases are things that aren't scalable i.e. they still require the same amount of human input labor to produce

Childcare is constrained by the fact that each childcare worker by law (for better or worse) can only look after so many children at once. This ratio varies by state but it's usually around 4 children per childcare worker. The result is that it has to be expensive because (short of having robot caretakers) it always takes 1/4 of a person's labor.

Education is similar, but has gotten worse in the past few decades w.r.t. labor requirements. While class sizes have remained relatively constant, there are more administrators, special needs educators, counselors, etc. servicing the same group of students.

This isn't to say they shouldn't be regulated, or that there isn't room for improvement. College tuition and textbooks could certainly use some downward pressure.

Re: America's 1% Has Taken $50T From the Bottom 90%

#329

Post by kazen44 »

nostrademons wrote: post #285
quickthrowman wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When the pandemic is over, it will sell back these bonds the banks it bought them from. This remains to be seen, the market had an absolute fit when they said QE was tapering in 2013, and also had an absolute fit when Powell was raising rates in 2018, particularly in December. The Fed may have painted themselves into a corner here, nothing is certain with regards to unwinding QE or raising rates.

I've heard (from finance professionals) that big elephant in the room is corporate debt. Corporations need to roll over their debt when it comes due, and a fair amount of it is short-term paper. If interest rates rise, that debt will become a lot more expensive, which will make many of the more marginal companies insolvent. Not software companies, which are sitting on hoards of cash, but all of the ordinary manufactu…

which is highly dangerous to the general stability of society. When economic policy results in massive finanicial instability for the common worker (thanks to hyperinflation and insane asset prices) it creates a power vacuum which can be filled by those promising to fix the problem quickly and swiftly.

Re: America's 1% Has Taken $50T From the Bottom 90%

#330

Post by chordalkeyboard »

Apocryphon wrote: post #323
chordalkeyboard wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> very basic and banal fact that taxation is a valid mechanism that a society uses to sustain itself. Validity in this case is not a fact it is an opinion or value judgment that implies that it is moral/ethical to use coercion to extract money from citizens. You may agree with this. You may not claim it as a fact. > taxation as a principle is not some sort of ludicrously unjust abomination Thats your opinion and the…

> it is an opinion or value judgment that implies that it is moral/ethical to use coercion to extract money from citizens. Sure, and it is an opinion or value judgment supported by millennia of social contract even before Enlightenment era thinkers came up with the concept of the social contract. If you're going against one of the basic mechanisms or tools for how society works, you might as well label yourself an an…

> Sure, and it is an opinion or value judgment supported by millennia of social contract even before Enlightenment era thinkers came up with the concept of the social contract.

Yeah, so is slavery. So is monarchism. So is marital rape.

> If you're going against one of the basic mechanisms or tools for how society works, you might as well label yourself an anarchist. Which is fine, plenty of mutualist ideologies exist, but you should at least identify yourself so people will understand the very different ideological framework you're arguing from.

I’ll identify myself as an anarchist for being opposed to violent coercion of resources if you will identify yourself as a criminal for being in support. Sound fair?

> And the puritans who dictate popular morality appreciate your conformity in wearing clothing.

Norms of wearing clothing are not dictated by puritans but arise and are maintained by repeated intentional participation.

> Again, people can oppose oppressive taxes and unjust tax systems,

We do. In fact we invite you to explain how any tax is just.

> but to argue that taxes are unnecessary is seemingly arguing against all of human society since the development of agriculture.

Not at all, one may as well say that arguing that slavery is immoral is arguing against all of human society since agriculture.

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