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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#321
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me? I think they should close any facilities they have in Pakistan, tell Pakistan plainly that they're not going to do that, and keep making the app available. (Of course, I don't own any stock, so it's kind of painless for me to have that opinion.) The thing is, neither Apple nor Google wants a future where the only apps available are those that lie in the intersection of what is legal in 180 different jurisdictions…

> keep making the app available Leaving Pakistan means shutting down their Pakistani App Store, so the app still won't be available. (Someone could, say, put the app on the US store and Pakistanis might be able to figure out a way to get it from there... but they can do that either way.) > ...The alternatives are to have a different store for each country OK, I guess you don't know this yet, but that's the way it is…

> Leaving Pakistan means shutting down their Pakistani App Store, so the app still won't be available.

If Apple chose not to exercise totalitarian control over iOS users by making their App Store essential to installing software on iOS devices, then Apple would not have to collaborate with the totalitarian Pakistani government. Pakistani religious and ethnic minorities could distribute software through whatever covert channels they've already established to resist their oppressive government.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a great argument for Governments that support religious freedom. Not sure I follow your logic to a conclusion that makes Apple and Google the villains here though. A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not. There is no choice that involves serving those users but not following the oppressive laws of said country.

french secularism is beautiful. all are equal under law. and freedom FROM religion. if your friend and his friends had this thing where they chopped of skin from their babies genitals. would you be ok with that? why is it ok when religious people do it? clearly following dogma in this case over reason is the symptom of mental illness or damage. religions are much more oppressive if you ask me. they function without a…

> french secularism is beautiful.

As an indian, I have to somewhat disagree. I find the idea of secularism beautiful and necessary for a democracy but the french way of implementing it uncomfortable and some what extremist (but understand their historic roots).

Secularism in India is certainly inspired by US and European democracy (especially France), but is not similar:

  The Court also discussed the concept of "Indian Secularism", which was said to be based on "equal tolerance of all religions". Indian Secularism was distinct from Western Secularism as it is not anti-religious. It gives to all its citizens equal freedom of conscience and religion.
('Reckless Statements Demeaning Another Religious Faith Will Only Sow Seeds Of Hatred' : Madras High Court Warns Evangelist While Quashing FIR - https://www.livelaw.in/news-updates/demeaning-another-religi... ).

In practice, this means that the state doesn't believe it has to compete with religious ideas for its existence.

So it doesn't mind if you display your religious identity in a government office or in public schools. So unlike France (and some other European states) that would frown on a Christian or a Hindu or a Muslim displaying their respective Gods or religion's symbols or even praying in government office, all these practices are quite common in India.

One of the idea behind this is that people tend to view the unfamiliar with suspicion and distrust.

And religion also introduces certain cultural beliefs in a society. Thus, in a multi-cultural and multi-religious country like ours, restricting cultural practices can create intolerance - people are generally more accepting of each other when they are exposed to each others culture, including religious ones, and understand it.

Thus, not being "anti-religious" is especially helpful for the majority to understand the minority, and the minority to be comfortable in the society because everyone is encouraged to treat differing beliefs with tolerance (if not acceptance).

Another reasoning is that the state understands that every human also aspires to spiritually develop. (The state doesn't consider spiritual development as necessarily religious in nature, but recognizes that it is the majority practice). Thus, indian secularism focuses on inclusiveness and equality by treating everyone as a spiritual being, and thus eschews being anti-religious.

Instead of forcing any religious reforms from the top, it encourages reformists to work with the respective section of society for the changes they seek. Only when they have gained a certain momentum do they start considering it as political issue which needs legislative intervention. (Over the past 100 years, this is how Indian society has slowly done away with retrograde religious practices). This slow approach is necessary to make the reforms more acceptable and lasting in society.

We could use the Guillotine too, but look at Turkey now after its staunch secularist leader who enforced secularism using state power, passed away ... if secularism doesn't come from society, it cannot survive. We in India too are now facing the same issue as the political party in power tries to push a religious identity on to our country and make many think that the ideas of secularism is not needed in India.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#323
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Context for anyone who doesn't know: Apple, by law, operates iCloud/iMessage servers in China in the physical control of the CCP (presumably enabling wiretapping and censorship on-demand) to be able to offer those services to iPhone users in China. https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/25/18020508/how-china-compl...

Which makes Apple & Google (and other tech companies) complicit with the CCP behavior for the sake of the almighty $$.

Google was the only tech company that took a moral stance and left China I thought?

It hurt their income so bad new leadership tried to get back in...

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#324
post #320
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> provider of the platform to stop allowing for them to be installed The fact that this is possible (worse on iOS) is the architectural and political tragedy of these app stores. A "provider of the platform" should have no power to have any say in what apps are installed on a user-owned device, in which case it would be impossible to coerce them into banning this or that.

> A "provider of the platform" should have no power to have any say in what apps are installed on a user-owned device, in which case it would be impossible to coerce them into banning this or that. What if end users who buy the device WANT the manufacturer to have that power, to keep their device malware- and spyware-free?

Do you think Ahmadiyya Muslims in Pakistan want Apple and the Pakistani government to forbid them from installing the software they like? Do you think they feel safe because of this? It is common for totalitarian systems to cite user/citizen safety to justify themselves. I encourage you to see past this bullshit.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a great argument for Governments that support religious freedom. Not sure I follow your logic to a conclusion that makes Apple and Google the villains here though. A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not. There is no choice that involves serving those users but not following the oppressive laws of said country.

french secularism is beautiful. all are equal under law. and freedom FROM religion. if your friend and his friends had this thing where they chopped of skin from their babies genitals. would you be ok with that? why is it ok when religious people do it? clearly following dogma in this case over reason is the symptom of mental illness or damage. religions are much more oppressive if you ask me. they function without a…

It’s beautiful for the government to threaten you with jail if you wear something the government believes to be religious?

ha

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#326
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fundamental issue with the argument you're presenting is that Pakistan is not a secular country, unlike England or the USA. An example of a country that bases their government on a particular religion allowing citizens to freely declare whether they're adherents of that religion even if their practice differs significantly compared to established orthodoxy would significantly strengthen this assertion.

Is it ok to sell weapons of war to a country engaging in ethnic cleansing, and if not - why not? After all, the country is allowed to decide it's own rules and laws. If it decides ethnic cleansing is allowable, we should follow that right? Of course not! Just because a country decides some action is legal doesn't make it moral or ethical - and knowingly aiding an unethical act is itself unethical! We do and should ab…

Well it isn’t murdering people. So it’s not quite equivalent.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a great argument for Governments that support religious freedom. Not sure I follow your logic to a conclusion that makes Apple and Google the villains here though. A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not. There is no choice that involves serving those users but not following the oppressive laws of said country.

french secularism is beautiful. all are equal under law. and freedom FROM religion. if your friend and his friends had this thing where they chopped of skin from their babies genitals. would you be ok with that? why is it ok when religious people do it? clearly following dogma in this case over reason is the symptom of mental illness or damage. religions are much more oppressive if you ask me. they function without a…

> french secularism is beautiful.

Unless you wish to wear religious articles.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#328
post #247
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please cite sources showing Apple "loudly proclaiming how moral" it is.

Apparently for Apple, privacy is moral in the US but not in China. Hahahahahahaha! Also not really privacy since your device is backed up to Apple’s servers where they can conveniently hand them over to the US government. That’s right. If you are a citizen of say Germany, does the US government have access to your data?

What do they do in China that is different to the US?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#329
Information and Economic warfare should be seen as no different than physical warfare with weapons. (That is the crux of 4G and 5G warfare as is officially acknowledged in militaries today)

Google & Apple provide asymmetrical resources to 1 group (Pakistani Govt.) over the other (Ahmidiyas). This is no different than the US selling weapons only to the Saudis but not to Yemen.

The Saudi situation is clearly seen by everyone as morally deplorable. However, Google and Apple aren't subjected to any scrutiny.

I don't expect profit oriented companies to have any morals. However, Tech companies have spent an entire years of marketing expenses towards virtue signalling and claiming to be the ones who uphold morals. They have dug their own graves, now they must lie in it. They will deserve every twitter and internal storm created by a fresh scandal.

If McKinsey had blood on its hands for causing the Opioid epidemic, then so do Google and Apple for the persecution of the Ahmediyas. (Note: Ahmediyas are the only strictly peaceful sect of Islam. They are not militant insurrectionists or actively traitorous in a manner that would warrant violent reaction)

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#330

Pakistan's laws are clearly wrong, but Apple and Google do not and should not have the authority to bypass any country's laws.

No. but the citizens should be able to bypass unjust laws and Apple and Google have no business preventing that.
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