I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#321

Post by Fellshard » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:13 PM UTC

DCKing wrote: post #233

gnulinux wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does this distinction matter? Gnome on X works perfectly fine, Gnome on Wayland does not. Why does it matter it to state that Wayland is a protocol, not the implementation?

Because if what's bothering you is the implementation and not the protocol, you should be talking about fixing the implementation instead of diverting attention to the protocol? I might not understand your question here.

If every implementation of a protocol seems stuck with deal-breaking bugs or incompatibilities, it's time to start asking whether the protocol itself has some problems that make it impossible to implement consistently - unstated assumptions, for example, in the reference implementation that never made it to the protocol spec.

For a modern example of this in action, see Bluetooth and the madhouse of device 'quirks' you have to settle with day-to-day, since each device has subtly protocol-breaking opinions on how to implement it.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#322

Post by DCKing » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #292

DCKing wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but there's no such thing as "switching to Wayland". What most people mean when they "switch to Wayland" is that they're switching from Gnome on X11 to a "pure Gnome" stack that uses Wayland and a bunch of other Freedesktop standards for interopability. There is absolutely no code from the "Wayland project" running there, because the Wayland implementation is Gnome's own (it's…

>> What you're observing is not "Wayland not being there yet", it's Gnome not being there yet. All of these deficiencies have nothing to do with Wayland itself. While technically true, that is a bit of deflection. In some cases none of the compositors have implemented certain things yet. My biggest issue with gnome is that it doesnt remember where my windows were last time I ran an app. Someone over in way-land proba…

> While technically true, that is a bit of deflection. In some cases none of the compositors have implemented certain things yet.

Deflection is entirely my point here :) These things are real problems, but they should be fixed in Gnome/KDE/Sway/wherever you find them. Complaints should be addressed there, and not at "Wayland", because "Wayland" can't fix em!

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#323

Post by arbitrage » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

how long have people been workng on wayland? how often have they said it's almost ready? what do they have to show for this charade?

the crazy conspiracy theory here actually is that we need to replace Xorg/X11 with something that just doesn't work, and nobody actually wants to use.

keep appealing to outrage, though. hypocrite.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#324

Post by kuschku » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

enriquto wrote: post #279

kuschku wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is ... not true, either broadly or generally I’m saying that because if you ever type in your password, e.g. into a screenlocker, into a terminal with sudo, or an apt-get gui, every application can listen to those input events. Every application has the ability to be a keylogger by default. And with that captured password, it then can either inject input events into your terminal, or run sudo itself. > The Way…

> With X11, even a flatpak without any special permissions or bind mounts can still basically control your system. Just listen for input events until you see the keys "s u d o", then listen until you see something that looks like a password, then wait until the user is not paying attention, and inject virtual input events to start a terminal and inject input events to run "sudo rm -rf /*" with the password you captur…

Flatpak runs applications in what’s nowadays referred to as container: the application can’t see any processes outside the container, can’t access any filesystem except for files you explicitly open with the application, and especially can’t edit your .bashrc.

That’s the point of flatpak. But as long as you use X11, there’s one single privilege escalation path left, and that’s the complicated one I described above.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#325

Post by voldacar » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

> a blithe rejection of facts to embrace a narrative of victimization by a vague authority

actually I am victimized by the extra frame of latency. cool rant though

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#326

Post by alyandon » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

unanswered wrote: post #169

alyandon wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can fix the problematic service with: systemctl edit service-name [Service] TimeoutStopSec=XX You can also override the global default DefaultTimeoutStopSec in /etc/systemd/system.conf.

See, this right here is the (technical, not social) problem with systemd. Whether anyone points out that systemd is doing something stupid and wrong, the systemd shills' answer is always "well duh what did you expect when you didn't modify one of the hundred default configuration files to have `[stupidshit] = false`! You brought this on yourself!" And you're lucky if that even works to solve the problem.

/me shrugs

It's just another init system to me. I don't really care enough about it to get upset and complain that I had to read some documentation and edit a text file to change its behavior.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#327

Post by dancek » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

lewispollard wrote: post #151

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

> I've been down this road a lot with FOSS software: "I don't use it because it doesn't do what I need", "sure it does!", "no, it really doesn't", "well you don't need that anyway!"... Just recently (I was on a Fedora box temporarily) I was trying to figure out how to get Nautilus to stop starting a search whenever I typed something, and instead highlight the nearest match in the current directory, y'know, like prett…

> dictatorial power over 100s of users

GNOME has tens of millions of users.

I do understand your sentiment. I don't like GNOME myself. But there are alternatives. If you don't like it, try using something else, contributing patches with configurable behavior or maintaining a fork.

FLOSS maintainers are a rare breed. We as a community need to find ways to not burn them out. Even if you have millions of happy users, just a couple of really toxic ones can make it feel not worth it.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#328

Post by h_anna_h » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

kuschku wrote: post #290

SEJeff wrote: post #191

The author is kind of a jerk. He complains that users don't like wayland when he entirely and wholesale rejects anyone who wants to use an nvidia graphics card. Maintainers with attitudes like this are why we can't have nice things: https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html Sadly, the OSS driver doesn't support the 4k monitors I use for work well enough to actually use day to day. So my option is to use…

Or you start buying a GPU that actually supports linux? If you buy a proprietary product with no actual linux support, then why are you complaining to the unpaid volunteer to fix it, and not the multi-billion dollar company you just made several hundred dollars richer?

In their defence until a few years ago it was nvidia that had the good linux drivers while AMD was stuck with bad ones. The tables turned after AMDGPU as far as I know.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#329

Post by genpfault » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

DiabloD3 wrote: post #93

himinlomax wrote: post #15

Well I wish I could use it, but it simply does not let me run any Steam games at this point.

This is a common misconception, thank you for bringing it up. Wayland and modern post-KMS Xorg do not control your hardware, and have no real ability to do anything with 3D acceleration outside of what Mesa/DRI/DRM/KMS grant them the permission to do. Wayland and Xorg both call the same APIs provided by them, and call them effectively the same way. The side effect of this is fbcon can be ran on modern "all shader/no…

> (this happens most often if you accidentally install an Nvidia GPU and use binary drivers).

Heh

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#330

Post by sokoloff » Tue, Feb 02, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

samsari wrote: post #221

londons_explore wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree. But as a user the distinction doesn't matter.

The distinction really really does matter, if your argument is "wayland is shit".

That depends on if the precise argument is closer to "Wayland, as experienced by everyday users, is shit" or "Wayland, as a Platonic ideal, is shit."

People, especially people trying to work done on their computers, usually mean the former.