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Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

reuters.com

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Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#321

Post by ardy42 »

_nckn wrote: post #298
themgt wrote: post #91

I highly recommend doing some reading about what Xi and the CCP are really thinking and planning. It's a fascinating situation, and I'm not sure we or even they precisely know. But there has been a feel of a very dark turn overall in recent years, where perhaps an alignment between an appearance of widespread and growing failures of the US-led world order combined with China's unabated growing power, has cemented in…

EDIT: For the downvoters, I'd appreciate it if you come with replies. I wrote this reply like this expecting replies (with downvotes of course). I'm trying to self reflect a lot here. Forgive my provoking thoughts. Looking at even the US itself crumbles in today's misinformation world. I now have doubts in Democracy like Socrates did. If not for HK, Taiwan, and Uyghur Muslims, I'd consider Xi's dictatorship a good mo…

> If not for HK, Taiwan, and Uyghur Muslims, I'd consider Xi's dictatorship a good modern day role dictatorship.

In what way is it good?

It also does things like this: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/magazine/the-lonely-crusa...

and this: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/magazine/the-lonely-crusa... (on a related note, here's a video of what the Chinese police could do to you if you talk smack about them on WeChat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiMLVYK4hEc)

> What are the alternatives? Democracy has failed us in today's increasingly complex society, with free flow of misinformation everywhere. Education doesn't fix the problem. Critical thinking is hard, thinking is hard. Free education and free information doesn't fix the problem because people believe what they want to believe.

> As long as a country has stability and peace and the prosperity of its citizens, then shouldn't it be in that country's best interest to crush any opposition by any means necessary, including committing actions that are provoking UN or violating Geneva Convention left and right. Won't good (from the perspective of its citizens) dictatorship is better than crumbling Democracy?

If you're curious why you're downvoted, it was probably because of this "argument." You're saying democracy has failed and list some problems. Then, because of those problems, you appear to advocate for a rather nasty dictatorship, where those very same problems you just complained about would be worse.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#322

Post by christiansakai »

ardy42 wrote: post #321
_nckn wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: For the downvoters, I'd appreciate it if you come with replies. I wrote this reply like this expecting replies (with downvotes of course). I'm trying to self reflect a lot here. Forgive my provoking thoughts. Looking at even the US itself crumbles in today's misinformation world. I now have doubts in Democracy like Socrates did. If not for HK, Taiwan, and Uyghur Muslims, I'd consider Xi's dictatorship a good mo…

> If not for HK, Taiwan, and Uyghur Muslims, I'd consider Xi's dictatorship a good modern day role dictatorship. In what way is it good? It also does things like this: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/magazine/the-lonely-crusa... and this: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/magazine/the-lonely-crusa... (on a related note, here's a video of what the Chinese police could do to you if you talk smack about them on WeCh…

I was thinking as long as there is peace and prosperity for its citizens, then surveillance state is a smaller price to pay for most people. Xi was praised by majority of mainlanders because he lifted the country out of poverty.

The thing with China is, it is insanely big. How to govern this big country effectively if not dictatorship?

I previously tried to compare Japan and SK to China. But I realized that their culture is drastically different, and SK and Japan is also a much smaller country.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#323

Post by christiansakai »

Johnjonjoan wrote: post #315
christiansakai wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking from a defense perspective. Won't an anti aircraft system be effective here? It is cheaper to build an anti aircraft system that can be deployed everywhere vs the aircraft itself.

Yes this is one line of thinking. However integrated air defence systems (IADS) have not shown themselves to be effective so far. We've only really seen Russian systems in action and they've mostly failed, however it's very easy to argue this is due to poor training. One notable (alleged) engagement in Syria involved a Russian operated s400 battery (the latest and greatest) attempting to shoot down some of the 70+ to…

Thank you for the reply. I found it interesting. I was under the impression that anti aircraft missile is very advanced that it basically can just tail any aircraft there is, but it's not that simple.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#324

Post by ardy42 »

christiansakai wrote: post #322
ardy42 wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If not for HK, Taiwan, and Uyghur Muslims, I'd consider Xi's dictatorship a good modern day role dictatorship. In what way is it good? It also does things like this: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/magazine/the-lonely-crusa... and this: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/magazine/the-lonely-crusa... (on a related note, here's a video of what the Chinese police could do to you if you talk smack about them on WeCh…

I was thinking as long as there is peace and prosperity for its citizens, then surveillance state is a smaller price to pay for most people. Xi was praised by majority of mainlanders because he lifted the country out of poverty. The thing with China is, it is insanely big. How to govern this big country effectively if not dictatorship? I previously tried to compare Japan and SK to China. But I realized that their cul…

> Xi was praised by majority of mainlanders because he lifted the country out of poverty.

What? Xi took power in 2012, long after the lifting happened.

> The thing with China is, it is insanely big. How to govern this big country effectively if not dictatorship?

If it's too big to govern except through ruthless means, then maybe that means it's just too big, period. There's no moral imperative that says empires have to remain whole through any means necessary.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#325

Post by AnimalMuppet »

koheripbal wrote: post #312
kenneth wrote: post #197

As an expat living in Hong Kong, I've noticed a clear change of mood since the ramming-through of the National Security Law last month. Protests have all but died, and people are genuinely aware of having lost their relative freedoms of speech and assembly. Businesses on the "yellow" (pro-protest) side are distancing themselves from their support of the movement. Politicians are quitting opposition parties because th…

While the timeline was accelerated this year, it's hard to imagine that there could have been a different outcome. It's been decades now since the UK formally handed over HK to the Chinese central government, and the Chinese have always said they would integrate it slowly into mainland China. Hundreds of thousands of HKers have been migrating out of China for decades. I'm unclear why people expected HK to ever be aut…

"Slowly" turned into "slowly, and then all at once". And, as ardy42 pointed out, earlier than the deal said.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#326

Post by AnimalMuppet »

mamborambo wrote: post #311

Jimmy Lai is one of the most inspiring democrat activist of HK. With his wealth, he could have arranged a refuge and left HK months ago, instead of staying and being exposed to the increasingly beligerant CCP/Hong Kong bootlickers. A sad day for HK. I hope the world does not let him be detained indefinitely, like what has happened to Nobel laureate Liu Xiaobo.

The world may not have many options to help. They can raise a stink, and they can make things a bit economically painful for China. But China can choose to ignore both of those.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#327

Post by Stevvo »

88840-8855 wrote: post #122

This is going to be very unpopular. History repeats itself. Just 30 years ago the Soviet Union was dissolved. If you study this dissolution process, you see that demonstrations and the ambition to sovereignty was nothing new in the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact, but in comparison to the 50s, 60s and 70s, Gorbachev did not use military force to prevent countries from splitting off. If China lets HK go independent,…

There is no chance of Guangdong trying to split off in a Chain reaction; it's as Chinese as Beijing.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#328

Post by UIZealot »

ailun wrote: post #316
UIZealot wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can criticize my country because I’m not a blind nationalist. Are you sure you aren't? Let's see those comments criticizing your country. > And the US doing something wrong doesn’t excuse what China is doing to a formerly free society. Why doesn't it, when the US is the "leader of the free world", as you like to call yourselves? Seems to me you are holding China to a higher standard than the US. Why is that?

I’m very sure. Do you actually have an issue with the substance of what I said? Obviously I’m not going to link you to all my online accounts to prove to you whether I’ve sufficiently criticized the US. I’m going to very briefly reply to your second point, because I don’t think you’re discussing in good faith. Whether or not the US does something wrong is irrelevant to the rightness or wrongness of China’s actions, b…

I'm glad you are so sure.

Maybe the new national security law of HK is less than the Platonic ideal of a perfect law. Is it also fair to say that you think the National Security Law of the US is bad too? Since chloerei stated that it "is broader and stricter than China" and you didn't refute it. Can you elaborate on that? Since it's your own country and you should be much better informed to comment on that than on the HK law.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#329

Post by fsckboy »

koheripbal wrote: post #312
kenneth wrote: post #197

As an expat living in Hong Kong, I've noticed a clear change of mood since the ramming-through of the National Security Law last month. Protests have all but died, and people are genuinely aware of having lost their relative freedoms of speech and assembly. Businesses on the "yellow" (pro-protest) side are distancing themselves from their support of the movement. Politicians are quitting opposition parties because th…

While the timeline was accelerated this year, it's hard to imagine that there could have been a different outcome. It's been decades now since the UK formally handed over HK to the Chinese central government, and the Chinese have always said they would integrate it slowly into mainland China. Hundreds of thousands of HKers have been migrating out of China for decades. I'm unclear why people expected HK to ever be aut…

It's not that people expected HK to be autonomous permanently, but that it was expected that opening access to the west for the whole of China, and to western economies, and especially through Hong Kong, would lead to a rising Chinese middle class who would want more liberal democratic values, and a corresponding decrease in paranoia by the ruling elite.

There is historical evidence that suggests that liberal values flourish better with prosperity, just as environmental and anti-pollution awareness increases once people rise above subsistence.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#330

Post by AnimalMuppet »

acomjean wrote: post #46

The nytimes republished Jimmy Lai’s editorial today. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/opinion/hong-kong-china-n... “Do My Tweets Really Threaten China’s National Security?“

And the answer is yes, his tweets really do threaten China's national security. People internally questioning the CCP delegitimizes the CPP and Xi. That threatens, not China, but the ruling party. They defined their continued rule as the national security of China.
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