Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

protonmail.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

321–330 of 600 posts

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#321

Post by justaguy88 »

mostlysimilar wrote: post #8
slivanes wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"No one is forcing any company to publish into the App Store." Yes Apple is, there is no alternative to the App Store on an iPhone.

I think the point is app developers can target other platforms to release their software, they don't have to target iOS. Part of my confidence in the iOS app store is the fact that Apple controls it so strongly. If they were forced to allow third party apps I doubt I would install any. My phone is too critical a part of my life to risk it.

But app developers can't make their own app store for iOS

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#322

Post by judge2020 »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #310
scarface74 wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So now are you suggesting that the government force Apple to release XCode for Windows? Linux?

What makes you think I'm suggesting that? I was simply ridiculing the idea of forcing users to acquire developers license. The right way, of course, is to allow third party appstores and app sideloading. Just like we have it on macOS - and it doesn't look like someone was made unhappy because he can run Steam and buy Sketch directly from the developer. Someone besides Apple, of course.

Not forcing people to be a developer to sideload apps isn't addressing the elephant in the room that you need to have a Mac ($800+) to build them. Your solution would best be 'allow downloading and installing .app packages from websites'.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#323

Post by scarface74 »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #85
xvector wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The manufacturer of the device must not control what apps I run on after buying it. The manufacturer of the device is within their rights to ship the software/hardware experience they want it to have. If you do not like it, then there is no obligation for you to buy said device. You are not entitled to make the device manufacturer pour time and effort into developing support for features like this. It's quite simpl…

I actually do just that: I don't buy apple's devices, for precisely this reason. And I happen to actually like them. This argument you make is actually done to the death. If you don't like Jenko's oil (ever read "The Godfather"?), you may just not buy it. It is a monopoly, and it hurts consumers. I'm actually very surprised that this freedom-loving public here on HN is so happy be restricted by their shiny digital ha…

What do the first two syllables in “monopoly” mean?

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#324

Post by striking »

jlnthws wrote: post #296

Apple sells an experience, it's hard to find a common ground to those single store monopoly issues without compromising this experience and tarnishing Apple's precious image. Suppose Apple standardizes jailbreaking: say they allow you to turn on a switch that creates a sandbox on your device for you to do whatever you want. Your device would then be running freestyle without warranty, fair enough for me as a first mo…

> What's going to happen next is a handful of illiterate or unaccountable users will deface Apple's reputation by bombarding news sites with their misfortune.

Many Android phones already allow you to gain access to root or to replace the OS that the device ships with (and even more of them allow for indiscriminate sideloading, even without rooting). Has Android's reputation been "defaced" over this opportunity for users to run custom software on their devices?

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#325

Post by Apocryphon »

moralsupply wrote: post #291
orwin wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying you are not fine to use the governement's force against a company that is removing podcast apps from their store because they talk about what's happening in China? I mean, i thought everyone agreed across the political spectrum that what China is doing in Hong-kong is bad. Reading this thread, i stand corrected.

Users accept the app store EULA, which serves as a contract, and in which Apple states it can shut down content according to any standards they desire. That means users are fine with Apple removing podcast apps that talk about whatever Apple doesn't like. If you believe otherwise, you believe that users don't understand the nature of contracts and can't decide on what's better for themselves. On the other hand, are y…

EULAs are not legally enforceable, nor are they legally binding. Clickthrough EULAs are absolutely contracts that users neither understand nor deign to read, and to claim otherwise is to hide behind the threat of the government monopoly on force imposed by legal action.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#326

Post by scarface74 »

echelon wrote: post #192
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #73

The ability to communicate by smartphone is so ubiquitous in our society that it has effectively become a basic need on the level of electricity, water, natural gas, and internet access. The utility service that was land-line telephones is becoming obsolete, and it's becoming increasingly harder to participate in society without a smartphone and the ability to install apps on that smartphone. In light of that reality…

If you support Apple and Google in their claims to 30% of the profit, then you support Comcast charging an additional fee for Netflix. If you support Apple and Google having locked down authoritative control over the code run on their devices, then you support the Great Firewall. The only choice of a free and open society, and one mindful of the great benefit of open source and open platforms, is to remove these comp…

If you support Apple and Google in their claims to 30% of the profit, then you support Comcast charging an additional fee for Netflix.

And guess what? I don’t have to use Comcast.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#327

Post by nodamage »

ig1 wrote: post #251
nodamage wrote: post #237

I am not sure why people continue to redefine the word "monopoly" to the point where it becomes meaningless. Claiming that Apple has a "monopoly" on app sales on its own devices might be technically true but is not a meaningful statement when there are plenty of alternatives to Apple devices on the market. It is about as meaningful as claiming a gas station has a "monopoly" on gas sales in a three block radius , or t…

I think you're confusing the common-usage meaning with the legal definition. Generally in Europe the market share threshold for monopoly investigations is 25% - Apple's market-share for mobile app sales is well above that threshold.

Not sure where you got 25% from?

> The Commission considers that low market shares are generally a good proxy for the absence of substantial market power. The Commission's experience suggests that dominance is not likely if the undertaking's market share is below 40 % in the relevant market. [1]

Historically the European Commission's antitrust cases against tech giants have largely been against companies with overwhelming market share:

European Commission vs Google: 90% market share in search [2]

European Commission vs Intel: 70% market share in x86 CPUs [3]

European Commission vs Qualcomm: 90% market share in LTE chipsets [4]

Apple's 25% is nowhere near the same level and I expect the Commission's investigation will conclude that they do not, in fact, have a monopoly in the EU.

[1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX%3A...

[2] https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_17_...

[3] https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_09_...

[4] https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_18_...

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#328

Post by scarface74 »

habitue wrote: post #238
DenisM wrote: post #118

The local cinema has an exclusive right on selling popcorn within its own walls. Far from being the only game in town, this cinema represents only 25% of the market and thus does not qualify for the Sherman Act definition of "monopoly". Punters, however, believe that once they enter the establishment they are now in the clutches of the monopoly, and so demand competing popcorn stands and reject the suggestion of walk…

This is not really an apt comparison because the commitment to a movie theater is pretty minimal. If you spend $1000 on a phone, you're stuck there for a while. Most of these issues don't become immediately obvious right when you buy the phone either, it's things that might take you a few years to realize are happening (if ever). Additionally, the network/ecosystem effects might make it such that you are really disin…

For a lot of people, the idea that they would show up as a "green bubble" means they will never consider moving off of Apple - If you've purchased a lot of apps that you will now lose, you're not going to just move off of Apple

How many people are buying apps for the iPhone and not subscriptions that work cross platform or spending money on play to win games?

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#329

Post by wayneftw »

scarface74 wrote: post #163
wayneftw wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody forces you to buy a Ford or a Chevy either but both of those manufacturers have to follow very strict rules about how they make and sell cars. If our country decides to make a rule about how smart phones should be created, sold or operated and Apple doesn’t like it, they can go and do business somewhere else.

Do console makers have to follow “very strict rules”.

If we make some laws that say they do then yeah they will have to.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#330

Post by [deleted] »

scarface74 wrote: post #163
wayneftw wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody forces you to buy a Ford or a Chevy either but both of those manufacturers have to follow very strict rules about how they make and sell cars. If our country decides to make a rule about how smart phones should be created, sold or operated and Apple doesn’t like it, they can go and do business somewhere else.

Do console makers have to follow “very strict rules”.

[deleted]
Post reply on HN