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University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

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Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#321

Post by fnord123 »

LatteLazy wrote: post #320

When this subject comes up I always tell the same story. When I entered university, the head of admissions had been forced to accept the job. He didn't want to be head of admissions (for physics, our subject). He used the opportunity to do an experiment. Normally you need advanced Maths with a decent grade to get onto a physics degree. He abandoned that and admitted about 20 people without that. He also admitted peop…

The logistics aren't impossible. As far as I'm aware, this is how e.g. the Belgian system works.

In the US, however, I think attrition is a metric that contributes to University rankings. So if you accept people into a course you want people to graduate. In such a scheme, the attrition rates are high.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#322

Post by HPsquared »

zamfi wrote: post #117
applecrazy wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this is likely a way to reduce asian american attendance at the top UC schools This is exactly what I was thinking when I read the Times article about this yesterday. I also applied to college last year, so I have a pretty recent knowledge of the process. I spent a grand total of $28 and managed to get a 99th percentile score on the SAT. To claim it’s impossible to score high on that test without money is absolutel…

> I spent a grand total of $28 and managed to get a 99th percentile score on the SAT. To claim it’s impossible to score high on that test without money is absolutely false. No one is claiming it's "impossible", and I don't want to minimize your experience -- 20 years ago, I also scored 99th percentile on the SAT with only $15 spent on practice books -- but it's absolutely not the norm. The reality is that a SAT score…

The reality is, richer kids are more likely to be good students.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#323

Post by sytelus »

zajio1am wrote: post #145
awillen wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I agree with this 100% - these students are going to be compared to each other somehow, and it's always going to be imperfect and favor those who are better off. Still, these tests are at least relatively objective, and if you remove them the kids will be compared with less objective measures that allow for more bias to be introduced. The SAT/ACT are the worst form of college admission criteria very much in the…

Here the common strategy for STEM degree programmes is to admit most people and then make first year hard enough that e.g. 2/3 of students are eliminated. In some sense it is more fair than strict admission criteria.

What does those 2/3rd do then? Do they lose a year?

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#324

Post by ibejoeb »

fnord123 wrote: post #321
LatteLazy wrote: post #320

When this subject comes up I always tell the same story. When I entered university, the head of admissions had been forced to accept the job. He didn't want to be head of admissions (for physics, our subject). He used the opportunity to do an experiment. Normally you need advanced Maths with a decent grade to get onto a physics degree. He abandoned that and admitted about 20 people without that. He also admitted peop…

The logistics aren't impossible. As far as I'm aware, this is how e.g. the Belgian system works. In the US, however, I think attrition is a metric that contributes to University rankings. So if you accept people into a course you want people to graduate. In such a scheme, the attrition rates are high.

Maybe not all, but some programs in France work this way, too. Grades and exams are certainly considered, but the thresholds are lower, entry classes are larger, and then there is a rather large culling after first term.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#325

Post by twic »

LatteLazy wrote: post #320

When this subject comes up I always tell the same story. When I entered university, the head of admissions had been forced to accept the job. He didn't want to be head of admissions (for physics, our subject). He used the opportunity to do an experiment. Normally you need advanced Maths with a decent grade to get onto a physics degree. He abandoned that and admitted about 20 people without that. He also admitted peop…

Not such an impossible dream.

I believe this is what they do in France. This was explained to me years ago, so i may have this totally wrong, but in France, if you get a baccalaureate at school, you have the right to attend your local university. There is no admissions process. As a result, there are far too many students. So, the universities make the first-year exams as tough as they need to, and kick out anyone who doesn't pass. Effectively, they use those exams to do admissions, just a bit late.

France also has some strange elite universities, the grandes écoles. They have selective admission. To get into those, you first do khâgne [1], a couple of years of preparatory study, followed by an entrance exam. If you squint, you could see this as letting everyone have a go at the first two years, and then only letting a few progress. To be honest, thinking about the French education system makes my head hurt.

Similar but perhaps more straightforward are the UK foundation years [2], for example, Durham's [3]:

> Foundation Programme courses are fully integrated elements of Durham University degree programmes. Students who successfully reach the progression standard by the end of the foundation year automatically gain entry to year one of their registered programme without further action or application.

The difference being that foundation years are optional - in your example, the people with advanced maths would not have needed the foundation year, but those without would have. Accordingly, they are still quite rare, because in the UK, people pick their A-levels with a view to what subject they want to study at university, and we hate social mobility.

And, of course, in the world of MOOCs and online universities, coming real soon now, it will be easy to admit millions of students to the first year of a course, as long as all the teaching in that year is highly scalable - broadcast lectures, not interactive classes; multiple-choice exams which can be marked by machine; lab work done in VR?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kh%C3%A2gne

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_programme

[3] https://www.dur.ac.uk/dcad/study/foundation/

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#326

Post by twic »

PureParadigm wrote: post #171
catalogia wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not convinced more time on tests will actually help somebody who doesn't legitimately have some relevant disability. Generally tests are structured so that if you know the material, you'll have plenty of time to spare. But if you don't know the material, it's unlikely you'll figure it out even if you're given twice as much time on the exam. It's not like they'll spend that extra hour teaching themselves the trigo…

I've taken exams in college where the professors intentionally put more questions on the exam than you have time for. They say, "think of each question as an opportunity to increase your score" as opposed to caring about answering them all. The score is then standardized at the end, since most results are below 50% correct. It turns out exams like this usually give a very normally shaped distribution. More time is a…

The examiners did this by mistake in one of the papers in my final exams. I had time to finish two of the three sections. They thought that was fine.

Fortunately, the external examiner didn't, and required them to add points to everyone's marks. I ended up with slightly over 100%.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#327

Post by twic »

caseysoftware wrote: post #189
anon102010 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha.. I think you have this backwards! If you think money can buy a good SAT score - go make some. Reality? Much easier to pay for a trip to "volunteer" in africa or at the local hospital, get on sports teams etc etc. If you have $$ being head of club X is a cakewalk! I had life changing SAT scores, and while prep helps, that slacker kid isn't getting 1600

A few years ago, I was advising a group of undergraduates at a university and noticed that one was the President of their club. I thought that was cool and met another.. who was also President. Then a third. It turns out, they called all their members "president" so they could all declare they were a "president of X" on their resume and could talk about leadership. Creative way to game the system for $0.

CVs of interns who went to private schools always have "president of the X club" on, for much the same reason. I don't know if they have multiple presidents per club, or if they just have masses of clubs, so everyone can be a president. I went to a state school - we didn't have any clubs!

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#328

Post by ibejoeb »

corrupt_measure wrote: post #22

>Admissions tests, allegedly biased against minority students, will be phased out over five years Why are we lumping minorities into one group when we know that many minority groups score better than average on standardized tests than the general population. Asian Americans, Nigerian Americans, Jewish people, etc all do very well. In a world where the wealthy have ever more advantages in college admissions, standardi…

It really is amazing how they've leapt across that chasm.

Also good to know that, in California, whites are a racial minority.

I can't wait to see how California designs new tests against racial bias. Will there be different tests for different races? And, their alternative is simply failing to develop a test, after which the methodology will presumably be to have humans make subjective determinations about other humans.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#329

Post by gexla »

Anecdote. I did HORRIBLE in high school. I somehow still graduated with less than the required GPA. I think they called it close enough because they didn't want to continue dealing with me. When I stupidly thought college would be a good idea, I got in based on my SAT score as my GPA wasn't high enough. Of course, I failed out of college too. ;)

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#330

Post by twic »

nicoburns wrote: post #133
zests wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private high schools bother me much more then SAT tutors do. I went to $GOOD_UNIVERSITY and it drove me insane how many people had previously gone to a private high school. The amount of resources they had that I didn't have at my good, public high school was astounding. It was really 'stand out from the crowd' kind of resources that are probably going to become even more important with the removal of SAT/ACT.

Yeah, I also went to $GOOD_UNIVERSITY (in the UK). There were a lot of private high school students, but what stood out to me even more was the level of resourcing and support that the state schools that some students had gone to had given them. A lot of these "good state-funded schools" pushed people to specific A-levels that looked good to universities, and had coaching on the university interviews and entrance exa…

I went to a UK $GOOD_UNIVERSITY, and before that, a "good state-funded school". The sum total of coaching for the interview was one mock interview with the head of chemistry and the deputy head - neither of whom had been to $GOOD_UNIVERSITY themselves, or really knew what the interview would be like. Still, they did their best, and i appreciate that!

Somehow, the school still got ~10% of each year into Oxbridge; i suppose that's the power of selective admissions.

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