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Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

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Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#321

Post by xienze »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #234
sandworm101 wrote: post #128

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

> This state supreme court could have delayed. This isn’t the rule of law. It’s a cop out. The problem is leaders had insufficient authorised powers. The solution to that isn’t to ignore the law. It’s to change it. Have the debate about who can activate quarantine under what grounds and in which circumstances, pass the bill and enumerate those powers. Playing devil’s advocate, the precedent of a single leader having…

> Have the debate about who can activate quarantine under what grounds and in which circumstances, pass the bill and enumerate those powers.

How’s that working out for terrorism via the PATRIOT Act? People are rightly suspicious of granting sweeping powers to the government in “special circumstances.” There’s ALWAYS the threat of a pandemic, it’s not stretch to assume these “emergency powers” become activated indefinitely, sorta like how these lockdowns are continuing indefinitely.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#322

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

Barraketh wrote: post #238
Gene_Parmesan wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is what I don't understand. (I seriously don't, and would honestly appreciate some explanations or ideas. And keep in mind I am 100% on board with following any and all recommendations of the CDC.) When we were all sent to sit at home back in March, the word was "flatten the curve." The idea was that containment was no longer an option, as declared by the CDC/WHO. Epidemiologists were predicting that somewhere b…

So since March we've seen multiple countries (Korea, China, New Zealand) largely contain the virus, and start re-opening the economy. The way you do it is to get R The way that these countries have been able to get R That at least is my understanding, and it's been largely informed by this webpage, which I found incredibly helpful. https://ncase.me/covid-19/

A lot of people do present that understanding, but it's inaccurate. China and New Zealand don't have an R < 1 strategy; they believe that harsh lockdowns must be maintained until local transmission stops entirely. (Which is obviously infeasible for most countries at this point.)

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#323

Post by mindslight »

rubidium wrote: post #274
techsupporter wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriously. At the risk of potentially misunderstanding what you meant, there's a yawning chasm between "freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to liberty" and "extra-judicially kidnapped by one's own government." I'd much rather li…

Most people I’ve talked to pushing for government to reopen things have lost jobs and businesses... or are about to. Their basic survival needs are being threatened. Show a little more compassion. I recommend talking to some people instead of parroting the pictures you see in the news.

That's false compassion. What you're effectively arguing is for those people to increase their family's exposure in a last-ditch attempt to save their business (and probably still lose it anyway), rather than directly addressing the economic problems facing them.

The cognitive dissonance comes about because it's not very American to expect or ask for help. Even though we're mainly in this position because the government itself mismanaged economic policy for decades, resulting in us being collectively overleveraged.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#324

Post by JPKab »

Gene_Parmesan wrote: post #217
AbrahamParangi wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lockdowns-are-destroying-America echo chamber and a republicans-are-killing-people echo chamber. These are probably both mostly wrong, but on the plus side things must be getting better because we're back to tribalism.

Here is what I don't understand. (I seriously don't, and would honestly appreciate some explanations or ideas. And keep in mind I am 100% on board with following any and all recommendations of the CDC.) When we were all sent to sit at home back in March, the word was "flatten the curve." The idea was that containment was no longer an option, as declared by the CDC/WHO. Epidemiologists were predicting that somewhere b…

"But at some point, almost every one I know has switched to believing that the real goal is eradication, that we need to be extremely socially distanced until case counts are near zero, or until a vaccine arrives. People now seem terrified at the thought of catching it, despite having no risk factors. What I don't understand is why this switch occurred."

Tribalism and politics. Edit: This comment was downvoted, which just proves my point.

The bad orange man said open up, and the responsible looking people who are good at looking serious as they stare into cameras and repeat information that they have no expertise in decided that they had to oppose him to be a voice for their viewers who didn't vote for him. (That is literally what CNN and MSNBC producers tell their on air anchors)

You, like me, will find that whenever you ask this question you will immediately be condemned as a follower of the bad orange man who cares about money more than human life.

Never mind that you didn't vote for the orange man, or that you supported the lock down to flatten the curve. You are questioning the tribe's decision. And boy do the tribal elders know how to scold.

Remember, if you don't toe the line, you are a bad person who sacrifices the poor workers to the volcano God.

Not that the tribe asked the workers what they want or need. The tribe all sit at desks for a living, and don't actually know any of the workers. But they are supremely confident that they speak for them.

Am example of the tribe at work:

I'm getting a haircut today. My governor is a Democrat. He has responsibly reopened certain kinds of businesses. Not much different than Georgia's governor. But nobody in the media talks about my state, because the narrative they have pushed is GOP are reopening, and Dems aren't. As if this is a partisan issue. It's not. It's a class issue.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#325

Post by magicalhippo »

dtwest wrote: post #285
techsupporter wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriously. At the risk of potentially misunderstanding what you meant, there's a yawning chasm between "freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to liberty" and "extra-judicially kidnapped by one's own government." I'd much rather li…

Sweden has 342 COVID deaths per million. The US has 254 deaths per million. Germany is doing better, but the rest of Western Europe has much higher rates of death than the US. There seems to be a myth going around that Europe is handling this better than the US and the statistics don't really support that claim. If you have to bash Golden Corral to make your claim, you're probably a bit biased against Americans. That…

> the rest of Western Europe has much higher rates of death than the US

Or not, depending on country.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-daily-covid-deaths-...

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-daily-covid-deaths-...

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-daily-covid-deaths-...

Norway and Sweden are in other measures very similar countries. We lie right next to each other, we have quite similar political environment etc. Our societies are in general quite similar. We had a very different response to the corona virus though.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#326

Post by enumjorge »

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #142
sandworm101 wrote: post #128

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

If it makes you feel any better, the lockdowns probably don't matter in the limit. 1) Individual behavior changed prior to the lockdowns (people don't want to die) 2) The government appears generally too incompetent to figure out how to lower R0 low enough to eradicate the virus 3) Since everyone can see that the govt is fucking this up, the marginal utility of hard lockdowns becomes less than the marginal pain. Some…

Your 2nd and 3rd points illustrate the cultural problem the parent comment mentioned. The “the government is incompetent” trope contributes to the distrust that’s making it harder to deal with the virus.

Like when you say the government is fucking things up, what are talking about here. Federal, state, city level? Because they each have approached the pandemic very differently and it’s unfair to put them all under the same umbrella. I’m pretty happy with the way my local government has responded. It hasn’t been perfect, but I also don’t expect them to deal with a once-in-a-century pandemic without hiccups.

I know at least here in the US it’s common to paint “the government” as incompetent, and overpaid. But when parts of the population are angrily protesting that they can’t get haircuts and flying to FL to party during spring break, it’s no wonder it hasn’t been easy to get this under control. I don’t envy the positions of some government officials.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#327

Post by dragonwriter »

Pfhreak wrote: post #173
jdkee wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to offer a citation for your claim?

That there were internment camps in the US? There's a long history of moving first people into concentration camps in the US, and FDR moved Japanese Americans to concentration camps during WW2. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_9066 There are more recent examples as well from America that house immigrants and prisoners from the Middle East.

> That there were internment camps in the US?

I think the challenge is for evidence that the broad principle (either internment camps or limitations on the franchise) conflicts with current application of Constitutional law, rather than that the practice occurred in the US.

> There are more recent examples as well from America that house immigrants and prisoners from the Middle East.

Yeah, that's a weakness of the claim, not evidence for it.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#328

Post by gwd »

dtwest wrote: post #285
techsupporter wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriously. At the risk of potentially misunderstanding what you meant, there's a yawning chasm between "freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to liberty" and "extra-judicially kidnapped by one's own government." I'd much rather li…

Sweden has 342 COVID deaths per million. The US has 254 deaths per million. Germany is doing better, but the rest of Western Europe has much higher rates of death than the US. There seems to be a myth going around that Europe is handling this better than the US and the statistics don't really support that claim. If you have to bash Golden Corral to make your claim, you're probably a bit biased against Americans. That…

But New York has over 1400 COVID deaths per million [1]. New Jersey, Connecticut, and Massachussets are all more than double of Sweden's deaths per million, and still climbing steadily. The US only looks good next to Sweden because there are big areas of the country that are way more spread out.

[1] https://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/?chart=states...

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#329

Post by ntsplnkv2 »

rubidium wrote: post #274
techsupporter wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriously. At the risk of potentially misunderstanding what you meant, there's a yawning chasm between "freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to liberty" and "extra-judicially kidnapped by one's own government." I'd much rather li…

Most people I’ve talked to pushing for government to reopen things have lost jobs and businesses... or are about to. Their basic survival needs are being threatened. Show a little more compassion. I recommend talking to some people instead of parroting the pictures you see in the news.

People's basic survival needs have been threatened before this when they would get laid off.

The entire rust belt became a cesspool of opiate and heroin addicts and no one cared when companies moved manufacturing offshore. No one cared that healthcare is tied to jobs.

I've talked to a lot of people who said yea I need to work, but I don't WANT to work, I have to. And that is not a failure of the lockdown. it is a failure of this very nation to take care of its own so that the rich can get richer.

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