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If You Can't Buy the Keyboard You Want, Build It Instead

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Re: If You Can't Buy the Keyboard You Want, Build It Instead

#321

Post by Symbiote »

K0SM0S wrote: post #261
anchpop wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used Colemak (which is similar to Dvorak) and I would really recommend learning it if you don't already touch type. It does involve a little bit of pain at first and you'll feel really tempted to go back but in a week I was already fast enough to do useful work. I'm not a speed demon by any means, I type at the same speed I did before (60 wpm) except now I don't need to look at the keyboard which is very convenient…

Thanks a lot! I've searched a bit based on what you said and sort of found a point of entry into Colemak. It's very enticing. I'm not a touch typist yet (use all fingers but quite inconsistently I suppose, yet 'fast enough' for me and without looking). Would it be sensible to make such a 'dramatic' layout change at the same time as the switch to a split ortholinear such as the EZ? It seems more straightforward to do…

I think it would be sensible to make all the changes together.

If you already type e.g. T with the wrong hand, then it's annoying to start typing it with the correct hand (because it's on the other side of the split), then learn a new location with a new layout.

(Do also consider Dvorak. The difference is not really worth an argument, but at least with a programmable mechanical keyboard one of the main advantages -- that Control Z/X/C/V remain in place -- can be kept with Dvorak with a small adjustment to the layout. I've never tried Colemak, but I do like the hand alternation design of Dvorak, and I think I would miss it.)

Re: If You Can't Buy the Keyboard You Want, Build It Instead

#322

Post by Symbiote »

sjy wrote: post #308
dkersten wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a happy vim Colemak user! The one thing I wonder about as a colemak user is should I have opted for a fully optimised layout instead? Having the common keys stay the same as qwerty was convenient while learning colemak but really isn’t necessary after a few weeks. I don’t regret choosing colemak though because it’s got good OS support (cones built in with Linux and OSX) while the fully optimised layouts typically…

I’m an unhappy vim Colemak user. I remapped HJKL to NEIO, which implied some other changes (particularly needing to find new keys for N and I), and now I never know what keys to press because I can’t keep track of whether I’m using a local vim with all my settings. Touch typing on Qwerty and Colemak is no problem, but changing my vim habits is much more difficult, I suppose because I don’t think as much about the let…

Non-Qwerty layouts are probably much better for Emacs users, at least if they know the somewhat dated names for the commands: most of the letters are chosen (if at all) for their initial, rather than their position.

Moving the cursor Forward, Backward, Previous line, Next line is Ctrl+F/B/P/N, which doesn't involve learning anything new when changing layouts. "Paste" is actually "yank", so that's Ctrl+Y.

Re: If You Can't Buy the Keyboard You Want, Build It Instead

#323

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

StavrosK wrote: post #320
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending where you're coming from, 300Euros one time payment can be a steal compared to the time and money you could end up spending at the physiotherapist or chiropractor later in life. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here but I find it ironic that some well paid developers in the western world can justify dropping nearly $1000 every year on the latest handheld social media machine and consider that a worthy inv…

And I find it ironic that some multibillionaires can justify buying a private jet but when it comes to buying good toothpaste they're suddenly "too poor". I mean, assumptions are great, if you like building straw men. You know almost nothing about me, where I live and how much I make, or how much my phone costs (hint: under $200, once every two years).

Please don't feel threatened by my comment, I wasn't talking about you or anyone in particular. Like I said, I'm not pointing any fingers and if that's how you understood it, I apologize.

Re: If You Can't Buy the Keyboard You Want, Build It Instead

#324

Post by souterrain »

tomc1985 wrote: post #270
terranoct wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the bandwidth per se, so much it's the continuous attention cost spent on keeping that bandwidth going. Better tactile feedback and more reliable input means I don't have to constantly multitask half a task worth of attention onto making sure the input I think I'm doing went off as intended, which makes it easier to concentrate on the main task, which reduces the build up of fatigue, which reduces the rate a…

By my read y'all need more practice typing, not a fancy expensive ergo keyboard. Other than the occasional hand cramps this lifelong nerd doesn't have any of those problems on this old, mushy MS natural.

It might be a consumer perception issue, either relating to the inexpensive (relatively) price or the Microsoft brand that keeps users away from the Natural versus other more complex designs.

Re: If You Can't Buy the Keyboard You Want, Build It Instead

#325

Post by Symbiote »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #112

My problem with such keyboard is that it assumes: - you will mostly work on the same place (or you accept the burden of traveling with your keyboard and be "that guy" when you set it up. Personally for the same hurdle, I prefer a secondary screen on the go) - you will mostly work on the same machine (or you have multiple keyboards, one for each machine, and if you are in a data center or tech support, you move with y…

I think you're overstating the difficulties here.

The overwhelming majority of people use the same one or two computers (one at work, one at home), and don't mind using a laptop keyboard when travelling to a meeting or visiting a client.

Anyway, since you're in Europe, don't you have a mixture of keyboards amongst your colleagues anyway? I certainly do -- I've noticed US, UK, Danish, French, Swedish, German and Russian printed keyboards. There are also about 4 kinds of ergonomic mice in use, of which two look pretty weird -- and the users of these mice are not developers, they just had/have RSI issues.

Re: If You Can't Buy the Keyboard You Want, Build It Instead

#326

Post by StavrosK »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #323
StavrosK wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I find it ironic that some multibillionaires can justify buying a private jet but when it comes to buying good toothpaste they're suddenly "too poor". I mean, assumptions are great, if you like building straw men. You know almost nothing about me, where I live and how much I make, or how much my phone costs (hint: under $200, once every two years).

Please don't feel threatened by my comment, I wasn't talking about you or anyone in particular. Like I said, I'm not pointing any fingers and if that's how you understood it, I apologize.

I don't feel threatened, I just think that the intersection of people who spend $1000 on a phone every year and those who won't spend $300 on a keyboard is very small. Besides, people spend their money on what they want to spend it on, and a $300 keyboard isn't expensive because of the existence of $1000 phones, but because of the existence of $100 keyboards.

Re: If You Can't Buy the Keyboard You Want, Build It Instead

#327

Post by UI_at_80x24 »

Baeocystin wrote: post #279
tomc1985 wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By my read y'all need more practice typing, not a fancy expensive ergo keyboard. Other than the occasional hand cramps this lifelong nerd doesn't have any of those problems on this old, mushy MS natural.

Fully agreed. I am very thankful that I took typewriting classes when I was younger. I do not think it is a coincidence that I also do not have trouble with keyboards being difficult to type on, unlike 90%+ of the folks I work with. Just plain putting in the hours of practice on proper form may not be a very exciting answer, but I can't think of a more effective one.

I agree 100% with you on this. My first year of high-school we had a typing class on an IBM Selectric keyboard. Our teacher was a wizened old secretary that for a considerable portion of her career used a non-electric typewriter.

What has always stayed with me was her guidance on posture and form. The 'piano style'* on which she insisted is almost completely contrary to modern ergonomic teachings, and yet I can say almost 40-years later; still works and is effective.

I readily admit that I'm probably lucky too in that I don't follow that guidance to the T, I do however follow the basic form of it. This anecdote simply agrees with your statement.

*: 'piano style' wrists higher then knuckles, finger-tips hovering/barely touching home-row, back straight

Re: If You Can't Buy the Keyboard You Want, Build It Instead

#328

Post by Symbiote »

co_dh wrote: post #275

https://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/detail.html?id=535590071686... This(pro) is what I am using now. Cheaper than ergodox ez but more beautiful. You may need compile QMK yourself because it is flipped as compare to EZ

I'm not sure why this is downvoted, except perhaps because you linked to the mobile site. Here's the normal site: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=535590071686 (site is in Chinese. This is an open-source design, so there's no problem that a Chinese manufacturer is producing it.)

Re: If You Can't Buy the Keyboard You Want, Build It Instead

#329

Post by Symbiote »

roel_v wrote: post #318
ganonm wrote: post #49

Around 2 years ago now, I took the plunge and bought myself an Ergodox EZ split island keyboard. Quite franky, it is the biggest quantum leap in the ergonomic experience of interacting with a computer I have seen since learning Vim. It is comfortable, effortless and fast. If you spend any significant time interacting with computers it is a complete no brainer to invest in optimising the IO channel between your brain…

If only there was an Ergodox keycap set with all printed keys. I used an Ergodox EZ from when it was delivered after the crowdfunding campaign, right until the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard delivered on its campaign, and I stuck with the UHK mostly because all keys are labeled. I post this every time there is a thread about the Ergodox in the hope there will be keycap sets available some day...

How about this? Or just search "Ergodox" on Ali Express.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32957791164.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32961243162.html

The keys are not profiled (they are all the same shape, rather than having different heights for each row), so except for the F and J (which have homing dips) they are interchangeable.

Alternatively, there are the geeky custom sets, like https://candykeys.com/group-buys/kat-milkshake , which sometimes support Ergo/Orth layouts. They can be less flexible (if they keycaps are profiled), and they will be considerably more expensive.

Re: If You Can't Buy the Keyboard You Want, Build It Instead

#330

Post by Symbiote »

UI_at_80x24 wrote: post #327
Baeocystin wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully agreed. I am very thankful that I took typewriting classes when I was younger. I do not think it is a coincidence that I also do not have trouble with keyboards being difficult to type on, unlike 90%+ of the folks I work with. Just plain putting in the hours of practice on proper form may not be a very exciting answer, but I can't think of a more effective one.

I agree 100% with you on this. My first year of high-school we had a typing class on an IBM Selectric keyboard. Our teacher was a wizened old secretary that for a considerable portion of her career used a non-electric typewriter. What has always stayed with me was her guidance on posture and form. The 'piano style'* on which she insisted is almost completely contrary to modern ergonomic teachings, and yet I can say a…

> The 'piano style'* on which she insisted is almost completely contrary to modern ergonomic teachings

What? That seems to be exactly the current advice.

http://ergonomictrends.com/proper-ergonomic-typing-posture-a...

http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/ahtutorials/typingposture.html

(First two hits from a Google search.)

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