Help me ask why you didn't just • Hacker News Board

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#321

Post by pdpi » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 4:32 PM UTC

The fundamental problem with the "Why didn't you just ?" format is that implies the other person knows less than you. Going down the self-effacing route just goes from "I think I have the answer" to "even though I don't know a lot about this, I still think I have the answer". It's actually worse.

Instead, I prefer approaching the discussion as me catching up to the current state of affairs. "What options have you looked at? Why haven't they worked?" followed by "Ok, have you considered/tried ?" Both fixes the subtext problem while actually giving you more information to work with — you can now choose to offer the "obvious answer" or not depending on their response, and potentially have a stronger argument for why it's a good fit and/or some caveats about why it might not be a great fit (but still worth trying)

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#322

Post by seankimdesign » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 4:36 PM UTC

Why don't you just ask "Have you tried using sshd"?

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#323

Post by jasonshen » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 4:40 PM UTC

My go-to here is pretty simple: "I assume X didn't work?"

This puts yourself in their shoes, imagines that they tried X and it failed and you're not sure why without having to say all this "not clever enough" stuff.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#324

Post by ianamartin » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 4:45 PM UTC

I'm acutely aware of this, and my pattern for phrasing things when I'm new to a scenario I'm trying to help out with is:

"What happens when you try x?"

What very often comes next is a clear explanation of why this obvious solution won't work, and often directs you right to the heart of the problem.

Every once in a while, you get an "Oh. I didn't think of that."

It's respectful, it assumes that person is smart and competent, and usually gets you where you need to go to start thinking about the hard problem at hand quickly.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#325

Post by olau » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 4:52 PM UTC

carlmr wrote: post #176

My take from personal experience: Removing the "just" obviously makes it less condescending: => Why didn't you use sshd? Removing the "you" could make it less personal: => Why was sshd not used here? Removing the past-tense makes it more forward looking (the past can't be changed, but people often defend their past decisions especially because they are unchangeable, the future however is less threatening): => Could s…

Could we use sshd in the future?

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#326

Post by saagarjha » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 4:53 PM UTC

NotableAlamode wrote: post #297

rpedela wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The phrase "you are wrong" is one of the fastest ways to get someone's back up against the wall. In your example, completely removing that phrase doesn't change the meaning and it eliminates negativity.

I completely agree with you. That's why publicly saying "you are wrong" is so powerful (and so dangerous). The powerful are not used to be challenged in public. They typically respond by a combination of - reframing, changing the subject - attacking, belittling you You can see this in action in stand-up comedy with hecklers. If you anticipate this reaction, you can turn this around very effectively in a professional…

> I note you are NOT answering my question

This seems unnecessarily belligerent.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#327

Post by godshatter » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 5:04 PM UTC

I guess I don't see this as much of a negative question as others seems to. I'm one of those people that likes to work on more obscure solutions to things just because they interest me. Might or might not end up with a better solution than the common method, but I gain insight that I can maybe leverage on some other problem. So the question "why didn't you just..." usually ends up with me stating why I thought that solution was interesting and what I've learned by avoiding the obvious solution. Of course, sometimes I simply didn't think of the obvious solution, but you can't put yourself out there without a little risk.

I don't tend to assume ill intent for questions like that. Someone saw the problem, and proposed an obvious solution. That's just being helpful, even if they start off thinking you're an idiot.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#328

Post by ummonk » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

"Wait, why couldn't you use sshd?"

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#329

Post by sampleinajar » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 5:21 PM UTC

rbavocadotree wrote: post #300

It's funny reading all the debate about different wordings because it totally misses the point. The wording doesn't matter, only the delivery does. The recipients's interpretation of the question depends on who is saying it and how they say it. Whether or not they include the word "just" is irrelevant. Any single one of the phrases mentioned can be delivered in a way that causes offense or doesn't.

Came here to say a similar thing. The reaction can say a lot about the person's opinion/impression of you. It might be too much to try to correct for other people's insecurities; however, if you find that a large portion of people get upset by your phrasing, then it might be worth it to consider how you present yourself in general to others. It might just be you.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#330

Post by DoreenMichele » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 5:32 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #319

DoreenMichele wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone may be genuinely interested in feedback. In such cases, you want to be polite and respectful while still communicating that "This is my first thought." It gives both parties room to maneuver and save face. That framing makes it possible for them to reject the feedback without suggesting anything negative about you (like "No, you're the idiot here!"). You may be genuinely trying to understand it yourself, in w…

> Someone may be genuinely interested in feedback. > You may be genuinely trying to understand it yourself > if you have enough education/experience related to X, you may actually have a better answer at first glance. They might actually be interested in improving it and open to your suggestions If any of these things are true, you will either know them well enough to know how to talk to them about it, or they will a…

Not everyone is equally socially astute. Some people aren't good at inferring such things. Such people need to work at it to make their life work.

Even if you are innately good at it, you may not automatically know how to handle it well if it's a new context in some way. This can include being a foreign national or facing other cultural barriers.

The most socially astute people aren't simply "born with" such talents. They work at it on top of whatever natural talents they are fortunate to have.