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TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free

propublica.org

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Re: TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free

#321

Post by abugheratwork »

pwg wrote: post #258
gugagore wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why the pain of filing is connected to the pain of spending money. If a politician raises taxes, and all it does is change the value of a annual withdrawal on your account, I think that pain would be the same, regardless of difficulty of filing. The pain is estimating and filing 4 times a year.

Here in the US there are actually individuals who view their IRS tax refund check that they get back each year from filing their taxes as "getting free money from the government". They simply do not understand the fact that, no, that check is not "free government money" but is instead money that the government took, held onto for free all year, interest free, and then let you have back after you filed the proper form…

That sentiment makes sense to me. Investing in real schooling makes a lot more sense, though.

Re: TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free

#322

Post by mixmastamyk »

chrismeller wrote: post #286
cr0sh wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to provide some motivations to politicians to help simplify the tax code? You speak of NJ, NY, taxes, "mistakes", fines, potential "audits" by the IRS, then wonder why politicians would want to simplify and improve something that many of them likely grift from or cheat on themselves, due to that same complexity... ...and one of the biggest of these tax cheats hails from NY, likely has had his now (on again, off aga…

Hey now, no pointing out that the government has an incentive to keep the system difficult and confusing because it gets them money! That’s absolutely not acceptable in this thread (I tried)!

Tax code complexity and the mechanics of filing are orthogonal. Fixing both is not a requirement for fixing either separately, or an excuse for not doing it.

Re: TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free

#323

Post by mixmastamyk »

fedups wrote: post #117

I like propublica's reporting on this but geez, this needs an award for one of the top HN obsessions. Within the past 7 months: TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free; 211 points -- 54 minutes ago TurboTax to charge more lower-income customers; 144 points -- 3 months ago Congress Scraps Provision to Restrict IRS from Competing with TurboTax; 82 points -- 4 months ago Listen to TurboTax…

This is a site for "disrupting" anti-competitive bullshit, what did you expect?

Re: TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free

#324

Post by pfranz »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #310
toomuchtodo wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to say probably not. I've been pretty disappointed by the attempts of private industry to deliver what should be government infra (tax prep, healthcare, prisons, etc), while I'm super happy with my roads, police, fire, water, sewer, muni fiber, and the USPS (all government provided or backed).

I have 'volunteer' fire service out here in the country. And installed my own sewer. Police are essentially non-existent out here - I see a patrol car maybe once a year go by. And the USPS has been going broke for decades now. Not a good example of a well-run service.

All of this /could/ be provided by the private market or by volunteers, but the things you're describing have a huge operational expense--especially in more rural areas. Something like tax software has more of a capital expense paid upfront. It doesn't cost significantly more if its widely used or used in more rural areas.

With taxes you're interfacing directly with the government; that's either as a citizen or Turbo Tax as a proxy for the citizen. To me, that seems more appropriate for the government to handle than fire, police, or sewer service. Whether it's the citizen or Turbo Tax, it costs money to implement Congress' tax code and build out a "UI" (tax forms). It still costs money to audit. So you're outsourcing one portion of the interface, you still have to build/maintain an e-file protocol, and you're doubling up on the auditing.

History bears this out as a band-aid. The program started in 2001 under GW because other countries already had online tax filing and engaging the private sector was seen as a way to "catch up" quickly. 20 years later it's still miserable for the average citizen and there are countless examples of other countries showing how much easier it can be.

Re: TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free

#325

Post by pfranz »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #313
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have 'volunteer' fire service out here in the country. And installed my own sewer. Police are essentially non-existent out here - I see a patrol car maybe once a year go by. And the USPS has been going broke for decades now. Not a good example of a well-run service.

USPS requires Congressional approval to set rates (as well as pension funding requirements). Your complaint is with your representatives, not USPS itself.

It reminds me of the demonization of the IRS, they just carry out Congress' laws and funding. It's disingenuous when Congresspeople complain as they reduce their funding.

Re: TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free

#326

Post by thorwasdfasdf »

mars4rp wrote: post #193

I am the developer in charge of CalFile, the free filing software that everyone asks for here for state of California. https://www.ftb.ca.gov/file/ways-to-file/online/calfile/inde... I am pushing so hard to make it better and more useful to more people, like being able to add capital gain that is not currently supported. these are the push backs that I am getting: 1. Last time they tried to do what all of you ask, a…

You sir, are Awesome! Keep up the good fight!

Now that I know about this, I'm definately going to use it. Can I use it for federal too? or do I need to use something else for federal, then I can use CalFile for state.

Re: TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free

#327

Post by elihu »

chrismeller wrote: post #146
delfinom wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? Fuck TurboTax trying to rent seek mine and anyone's ability to pay taxes. What's next? Feudalism?

You know, there’s a paper form you can fill out and send in for free if you’re that angry about it.

I do that because I think it's inappropriate that any third party should have access to private financial information that's no one's business but mine and the IRS's.

Still, it's an irksome chore that I would prefer not to have to do.

Re: TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free

#328

Post by dangus »

throwaway_law wrote: post #112
dangus wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with this simply because the idea that competition exists or could exist is not an excuse for the system to function the way it does. There are new players in the space, like CreditKarma. Many competitors offer more features for free than Intuit as well. But that doesn’t mean we should have to rely on private companies (who are data hoarding) to file our taxes. That doesn’t mean that free fillable forms ne…

> That doesn’t mean that free fillable forms need to be unnecessarily more difficult to use than commercial solutions. They aren't. The IRS form is the exact for completed by TurboTax or any other accountant/service provider. The IRS only accepts their own forms. >For most people the IRS could send a tax form already filed out to read, verify, and return. Thats what is really being asked...the Government to do tax re…

Telling us that the end result of the form is the same is meaningless. You don’t fill out the form manually on TurboTax. It automatically imports W2 information, it asks layperson’s questions, and generates the final form.

If you do this yourself, it’s far more time consuming.

I don’t understand why you think it’s a major jump for the IRS to provide this service. Other countries already do this. Other federal agencies also provide complex web services like My Social Security and Healthcare.gov.

The IRS already has your W2 and 1099 data. The IRS already knows when you make a mistake, automatically, often live as you e-file. I have had e-files rejected instantly due to mistakes. They clearly already know how much I’m supposed to owe them.

Re: TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free

#329

Post by pfranz »

8ytecoder wrote: post #315
mars4rp wrote: post #193

I am the developer in charge of CalFile, the free filing software that everyone asks for here for state of California. https://www.ftb.ca.gov/file/ways-to-file/online/calfile/inde... I am pushing so hard to make it better and more useful to more people, like being able to add capital gain that is not currently supported. these are the push backs that I am getting: 1. Last time they tried to do what all of you ask, a…

Given that open-source has given tough competition to every area of business software what, in your opinion, is the reason for a lack of open-source options to prepare taxes?

I thought I heard Brazil had open source tax software. It would need to be sponsored and managed by the government in order to work. With open source software the liability is on the end user and a corrupted Word document is a bearable risk. Businesses pay for Red Had and system engineers to reduce the risk their systems won't boot. In addition, tax laws change all the time (and are honestly a bit subjective).

I would imagine it would have to be managed by the government (or someone with liability) but accept contributions that would be vetted and approved by the government.

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