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The China Cultural Clash

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Re: The China Cultural Clash

#321

Post by lwansbrough »

paxys wrote: post #312
lwansbrough wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, your issue isn't actually with the people with China. Therefore, it would be wise to frame the argument around Xi and the CCP, as opposed to "China." It's like when radicals in the middle east yell "death to America" they're not talking about the people, but instead "the system."

The entire NBA fiasco started because of a 7-word tweet - "Fight for freedom, stand with Hong Kong." China wasn't even directly mentioned. This is about as mild as you can get.

Yeah I don’t disagree. I was more commenting on the general trend towards China bashing that I’ve seen online more recently. If we don’t bother to make the distinction in our writing we eventually won’t bother to make the distinction in our thinking, which would be playing into the hands of the CCP, who desperately want an enemy in the West.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#322

Post by kcanini »

throwawy4trueth wrote: post #308
Qub3d wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the name, age, and almost hilariously stereotypical grammatical errors, I can only assume you are at best a troll and at worst some sort of astroturfer or Chinese national. China has absolutely used state power to affect foreign states. Consider all the infrastructure projects funded by Chinese money in Africa[0] and consider what the ultimate motive is. [0]: https://qz.com/africa/1326618/china-is-building-expe…

Assume your imagination is correct, can you argue with which part is false instead of who I am and what motive is? The way you draw your conclusion reflects some interesting information. [edit]: Thanks for the link. It seems China is building infrastructure for other countries. Of cause it's not free but it's better than bombing other countries in the name of promoting value of freedom. A lot of people from victim co…

What sort of infrastructure is China building in Xinjiang?

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#323

Post by seanmcdirmid »

yourapostasy wrote: post #289
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your trade partner isn’t practicing as much free trade as you are, but you are still making money on trade hand over fist, then it isn’t very much in your interest to fight what is still a golden goose to you. The only reason this fight has come at all is because of a bunch of displaced factory workers (and areas that did manufacturing) that have been hurt by this trade, and their government had failed to redistri…

> The only reason this fight has come at all is because of a bunch of displaced factory workers (and areas that did manufacturing) that have been hurt by this trade... As a layperson watching from the sidelines in the software world, but fascinated by welding, electrical/electronics, mechanical engineering, CNC, machining, etc. , it is incomprehensible to me why US business leaders would so willingly cede manufacturi…

They didn’t abandon all manufacturing, just low level unskilled dirty manufacturing. American business people were happy to up the value chain to more technical stuff as well as more technical services. And actually, we have to move up this value chain anyways to justify our higher standard of living.

America still has a lock on a lot of technical know how that will take the Chinese decades to replicate (eg semi conductor and jet turbine production).

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#324

Post by mercutio2 »

UIZealot wrote: post #311
throwaway_bad wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not immune to fake news. I think that's why I appreciated your original response so much. I wanted to see how others are interpreting the same events. Human rights violation by china are well documented. You can look them up yourself assuming you have access to an uncensored internet. I cited disappearing people as the example that I thought was most relevant for the extradition bill. The triad attacks are defin…

Likewise, I appreciate your honesty and candor. > Human rights violation by china are well documented. That may have been the case. But we are talking about human rights violations by the Hong Kong government here, and I don't think you have a case here. > The triad attacks are definitely real We can certainly demand an independent investigation into this once the violence and destruction stops. > Westerners consider…

A few points:

A) It’s very difficult to distinguish false-flag violence from hooligans

B) Once violence starts, it’s hard to stop it, but that doesn’t mean that the government should automatically get its way because a small minority of hooligans/false flag operatives got involved

C) Protesting for universal suffrage from an uncontrolled slate of candidates seems eminently reasonable from a western perspective; what do you think is bad about this?

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#325

Post by cbnotfromthere »

supertiger wrote: post #228
mark_l_watson wrote: post #153

I also have mostly been a supporter, at least in spirit, of China. I enjoyed traveling there and I respect their tech abilities. My support has changed, and I can’t help but think that this is about the ego of Chinese leadership, since it seems like they are making some poor decisions. Perhaps even stupid decisions. I also wonder what the effect of President Trump has had in the poor decision making process of Chines…

>I can’t help but think that this is about the ego of Chinese leadership It is and isn't. I grew up in China and I think the Chinese government is overacting to this NBA statement. If the Chinese fans decide to boycott NBA that's their choice and rights, but the government should not ban NBA in China. At the same time, I am frustrated to see so much misconception and lack of empathy in the discussions here. The terri…

"I want to point out that Morey's HK tweet is out of line"

Which part of freedom of speech is still unclear even after supposedly you've "lived in the US for over a decade"???

"and doesn't deserve NBA's endorsement."

The NBA did not endorse nor reject Morey's words.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#326

Post by yourbandsucks »

mlyle wrote: post #319
yourbandsucks wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has already been going on for months, though. It's gotta be front-of-mind over there. The image of English-speaking westerners talking about "liberate hong kong" is a bit triggering for the average Chinese person, due to Hong Kong and England's history. It must be incredibly easy for CCTV to point at that and say that it's just the western imperialists trying to take HK away.

This is a strawman. Morey did not tweet anything containing "liberate Hong Kong". (That was subsequent, different events, by different people). China promised 50 years of "one country, two systems"-- people in Hong Kong want to cash that check.

I wasn't trying to take sides on the HK situation itself, though, so it can't really be a straw-man on that topic.

The topic was whether the outpouring of sentiment from mainland China could be 'organic' rather than some immediate government dictate.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#327

Post by sangnoir »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #296
gurumeditations wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that were true, the US would treat Europe as even bigger an enemy than China.

The US has used groups like NATO and the G7 to ensure that no European power would challenge US hegemony.

The UK has long[1] been seen as the America's cat's paw/poodle in the EU[2] - which is why some in the EU are of the idea that Brexit's silver lining is the end of British obstructionism.

1. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/is-the-prime-minister-a-p...

2. https://www.economist.com/bagehots-notebook/2010/07/23/brita...

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#329

Post by atr_gz »

curiousgal wrote: post #38

Adobe recently blocked all Venzuelans because of an executive order. Foreign companies are sanctionned by the US for dealing with Iranian entities even if their countries have no issue with Iran. (Huawei's executive was even arrested in Canada on behalf of the US for that). My point is, why should we hold companies accountable for enforcing a certain national policy when A, companies have always done awful things in…

A small quibble about the Huawei executive: she was arrested for fraud against a US bank, not for dealing with Iran. Huawei knowingly lied, telling the bank that they had no dealings with Iran. This caused the bank to unknowingly violate sanctions and get fined by the government.

I always see this glossed over by people supporting China's position but it seems like a crucial distinction to me.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#330

Post by remarkEon »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #323
yourapostasy wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only reason this fight has come at all is because of a bunch of displaced factory workers (and areas that did manufacturing) that have been hurt by this trade... As a layperson watching from the sidelines in the software world, but fascinated by welding, electrical/electronics, mechanical engineering, CNC, machining, etc. , it is incomprehensible to me why US business leaders would so willingly cede manufacturi…

They didn’t abandon all manufacturing, just low level unskilled dirty manufacturing. American business people were happy to up the value chain to more technical stuff as well as more technical services. And actually, we have to move up this value chain anyways to justify our higher standard of living. America still has a lock on a lot of technical know how that will take the Chinese decades to replicate (eg semi cond…

>And actually, we have to move up this value chain anyways to justify our higher standard of living.

This is the part that makes absolutely no sense to me. The farther you move up this value chain, the fewer and fewer people you can find that can actually do those jobs. They require advanced degrees and highly technical specialization and experience. Not everyone can do that. Unless you have a parallel plan to, perhaps magically, mint more and more PhDs every year what is everyone else supposed to do who was just a "low level unskilled dirty manufacturing" worker?

>American business people were happy to...

You're sure right about that! I think what people are questioning is if, as a state and society, that was a long-term good strategic choice. For the bottomline it absolutely was - for those businessmen and their company's earnings reports.

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