Live data from Hacker News

Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

latimes.com

321–330 of 620 posts

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#321
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep when I was doing accessibility dev, that was exactly how I tested. It's pretty effective and it also gives you a feel for how crappy the tools are for the blind.

what is the learning curve like for screen readers? ...and what form does documentation come in? I'd like to learn but not sure where to get started.

You can figure out the basics in about 20-60 minutes.

If you use a Mac, just enable VoiceOver: https://www.apple.com/voiceover/info/guide/_1121.html

If you use Windows, I suggest NVDA - it's a free screen reader that's similar to the most-popular-but-expensive one (JAWS): https://www.nvaccess.org/download/

IMHO the best screen readers are on your phone / tablet. This might sound crazy (how can a touchscreen work when you can't see it?) but they're much better designed than their desktop equivalents. Mobile software tends to be simpler, resulting in a better experience:

iOS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDm7GiKra28

Android: https://support.google.com/accessibility/android/answer/6007...

If you work in web tech and take 1-2 hours to learn one of these you'll be able to dazzle others with it for the rest of your life.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#322
post #153
post #149

So somehow along my career I fell into accessibility dev for a while. Funny enough it was one of the most lucrative dev jobs I did and there was always plenty of work. It is easily outsourced to a remote developer because all you really need is a browser and a screen reader. In my opinion there really is no reason for even mom and pop sites to not provide even a base level of accessibility, it really is just setting…

I work in a big IT company and often times internal tools are not very accessible. Sometimes when I talk to their respective maintainers, they are willing to help me, but they don't know what is accessibility and what is screenreader. Is there a good document on how to make web sites accessible that I can show them?

Consider installing a screenreader and the Lynx web browser so you can demonstrate what it’s like to access internal apps/websites with those tools. It might help to record your experience so people can watch the demo at their convenience.

Lynx... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_%28web_browser%29?wprov...

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#323
post #74

Blind programmer here. Just a glimpse of my life. Blind people have to live in an environment where X% of web sites and programs are not accessible, where X varies somewhere from 20% (for web sites) to 50% (for desktop applications). That's just my approximation of the state of accessibility these days. Now imagine that you live in the world where you don't know which printer or wi-fi router to buy, since maybe half…

I never even thought about this before, you gave me a little eye opener, thank you

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#324
post #74

Blind programmer here. Just a glimpse of my life. Blind people have to live in an environment where X% of web sites and programs are not accessible, where X varies somewhere from 20% (for web sites) to 50% (for desktop applications). That's just my approximation of the state of accessibility these days. Now imagine that you live in the world where you don't know which printer or wi-fi router to buy, since maybe half…

The demo part of this video by Tanja Kleut https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHgZTeMBihQ make me understand better accessibility issues. Without understanding and experiencing, I think it's difficult to really empathize and so the priority to have better accessibility is seen as low.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#325
The sum of all kinds of regulations like this one is great news for mega-corporations. Economies of scale mean that the costs are small for them, and proportonaly much bigger for smaller companies.

While I think it is a great goal that services should be accessible by people with special needs or restrictions, would it not be better if this could be achieved by incentives instead of hard regulation?

Perhaps as follows. 1) Create a registry for companies to self-declare that they are accessible for a given user segment by some given standard. (For essential utilities and government agencies, compliance can still be made mandatory) For registered entities, make this statement binding, and follow up breaches with fines that are sufficiently stiff that only companies that comply will register. This registry could contain information would contain information about standards that are already regulated, but could also be extended to include other needs (dietary standards, child friendliness, accessible to people with certain mental limitations, etc) 2) Make this information open to the public, and attach a rating service such as TripAdvisor where users can rate the degree of availability. This would make it easy for the beneficiaries to find services suitable for them. The data should also be made accessible through an API, so that special interest groups can mirror it on their own infrastructure. 3) Step 2 will provide an incentive in itself, but where it is not enough, introduce a tax incentive on top. Companies with the necessary accesiblity could be given a tax benefit in the order of 1-5%. This benefit should be on the profit, not the turnover, to avoid putting companies with limited profitablity out of business over this.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#326
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't line spacing whatsoever, it's tracing which one of the 10 lines you are reading from one side of a screen to another as your read it. Did you make your comment 3 paragraphs ironically?

> The problem isn't line spacing whatsoever, it's tracing which one of the 10 lines you are reading from one side of a screen to another as your read it. Then make your window less wide. It's not the writer's problem. > Did you make your comment 3 paragraphs ironically? No, but I don't think it would be hard to read if it was one paragraph. That formatting is to add in small pauses, not to make it easier to read when…

> That formatting is to add in small pauses

But... The lack of pauses is exactly what makes a tall paragraph hard to read?

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#327

Despite the somewhat misleading headline, the Supreme Court didn't really say anything new here. They declined to hear Domino's appeal of the Ninth Circuit's (unanimous and clearly correctly decided) reversal of the District Court's absurd dismissal. Domino's tried to claim that their due process rights were being violated since there is no federally-mandated standard for accessibility. But the ADA is clear: business…

'Full and equal enjoyment' is quoting US code out of context. The law reads "No individual shall be discriminated against on the basis of disability in the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of any place of public accommodation by any person who owns, leases (or leases to), or operates a place of public accommodation."

There is a clear difference between 'discriminating' against someone because of their disability, and a person's inability to participate in something because of a disability.

Later in the law discrimination is defined, and it gives an exception that auxiliary aids must be provided, except when providing them would be an undue burden.

If I were Dominos (I'm not a lawyer, so I probably have this wrong), based on a reading of the law, I would argue that since Dominos offers pizza ordering through the telephone it is not depriving anyone their services if the website is not accessible. The service Dominos has to provide access to is delivery of pizzas, not the use of their website, which only exists specifically for the purpose of ordering pizzas. Could a library be sued because a specific book doesn't contain braille, when the same book is available in braille? What if Dominos had two phone numbers, one that offered teletype and one that was voice only? This judgement seems to imply that they could be sued unless both their phone numbers offered TDD, because they are depriving people of the use of the other phone number?

I'm all for making websites accessible, but I find it hard to believe someone who orders a pizza over the phone is being deprived of 'equal enjoyment' of the pizza.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#328
post #111
post #74

Blind programmer here. Just a glimpse of my life. Blind people have to live in an environment where X% of web sites and programs are not accessible, where X varies somewhere from 20% (for web sites) to 50% (for desktop applications). That's just my approximation of the state of accessibility these days. Now imagine that you live in the world where you don't know which printer or wi-fi router to buy, since maybe half…

Pardon my curiosity, did you type this on a keyboard by touch typing? If so how do you recognize and correct typos? Or did you use speech recognition? Same question about handling errors. I'd like to make sites I build more accessible, but I must admit I'm only familiar with the bare minimal guidelines I've read in a couple articles. I don't even know if they're correct or up to date. Nobody I've worked for has ever…

Just to agree with the other's reply here: I am not blind, but do touch typing. Sometimes I don't even look at the screen or keyboard since I've learned to copy things (Such as a paper I've written by hand). You do get to a point where you develop a "sense of typo" and can simply correct the mistake.

It has its limitations: It doesn't help you spell better, only correct typing mistakes.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#329
post #74

Blind programmer here. Just a glimpse of my life. Blind people have to live in an environment where X% of web sites and programs are not accessible, where X varies somewhere from 20% (for web sites) to 50% (for desktop applications). That's just my approximation of the state of accessibility these days. Now imagine that you live in the world where you don't know which printer or wi-fi router to buy, since maybe half…

Interestingly, the primary surprise in your comment is that you say that just about 20% of website are not accessible - I'd have expected that percentage to be far higher! Of course, there's a difference between "usable" and "easy to use", I guess.

As a note, for any sighted developers (like me) reading along: I'd highly recommend you to spend half an hour to learn and practice navigating software with a screen reader some time. It's a relatively easy step that gives you a lot of insight into low-hanging fruit in terms of accessibility improvements.

(Also, keep in mind that accessibility is not just vision impairments. Things like small click targets can make things a lot harder for people with motor issues, e.g. many elderly people.)

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#330
post #74

Blind programmer here. Just a glimpse of my life. Blind people have to live in an environment where X% of web sites and programs are not accessible, where X varies somewhere from 20% (for web sites) to 50% (for desktop applications). That's just my approximation of the state of accessibility these days. Now imagine that you live in the world where you don't know which printer or wi-fi router to buy, since maybe half…

not trying to be an asshole but how long did it take to type this comment? do you use some sort of voice to text software?

To be fair: I can type pretty easily without looking at the keyboard. I am typing this sentence with my eyes closed, even fixing a typo while I do it. Touch typing solves a lot of this and a tab helps to hit the reply button.

IIRC, the screen readers will read back texts you just typed as well, but I'm not sure that is as necessary since most folks can get by with typing just fine.

Post reply on HN