Richard M. Stallman resigns • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#321

Post by ivan_gammel » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 5:58 AM UTC

kfrzcode wrote: post #165

naringas wrote: post #114

it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the informa…

I'm hesitant to post anything, anywhere, just because I don't want to offend anyone by expressing an earnest opinion. I think the trend's moving more quickly towards self-censorship than anyone realizes. How can we even quantify that? Those who censor just disappear? What stands out for me is the obvious monoculture we're developing. I miss custom PHPBB boards for every little interest and opinion.

Self-censorship is a norm which always existed as a social behavior, even online. In a small geeky world of early days of Internet, when community of connected people was small and more homogeneous, it was easier to touch certain topics without receiving strong reactions, but it didn’t mean self-censorship did not exist. It just concerned different things and the worst that could happen was a ban on the forum or IRC channel. It’s still the case for unimportant people: no one cares what random Joe says online. Everyone expects that opinion leader conforms to the norms of society - hence all those crazy scientists are being ostracized for spreading nonsense outside their field of research.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#322

Post by raxxorrax » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 5:59 AM UTC

nikdaheratik wrote: post #173

naringas wrote: post #114

it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the informa…

I think that it has next to nothing to do with technology. MIT was still reeling from the fall out with the Media Lab and Epstein. If it wasn't for that, they might have gotten by with a simple apology, but that wouldn't be enough at this point. There is also a history of controversial stuff related to his time at the FSF which meant that probably wouldn't settle for a simple apology either (not that RMS seemed willi…

I think without heavy proponents for free software, we would be in a worse place, especially technologically. Never met a software developer that wasn't dependent on free software to learn about the fundamentals of programming and system design.

Calling him an ideologue in contrast to current pioneers in the software industry is a bit much, maybe he just had some hard principles.

> wouldn't settle for a simple apology

To whom? To those that endorsed questionable business relations that drew attention in the first place that still are in leading positions at the MIT?

> need in leadership also changes

Visionaries and thought leaders can probably have a positive influence. I doubt we will get a adequate replacement. There also is no strong leader/mentor that can make you magically smart. He would need to inspire you to learn yourself which I would argue Stallman did pretty well.

"Controversies" are seldom intellectually engaging and if you look at the core of his statements, the subject and reactions become quite ridiculous.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#323

Post by josteink » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:00 AM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #252

naringas wrote: post #114

it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the informa…

This has nothing to do with technology. If you start expressing opinions about how sex with a sex-trafficked child should be legal, won't your friends and family raise some questions about your character? Unless we're talking of morally flexible individuals. And at least parents should raise an eyebrow, since we have this natural reaction to protect our children. > information wants to be free Whomever said that was…

> If you start expressing opinions about how sex with a sex-trafficked child should be legal

Good thing RMS never did that then.

And your comment is a good representative of the modern debate climate: People will exaggerate whatever their opponent said, and they will assume no good faith in their opponents what so ever. They will not consider an argument something to be learned from, but rather something to be "won".

Getting someone fired over having the "wrong" view is merely a bonus, but a bonus the SJW-crowd loves aiming for none the less.

No wonder we're all getting dumber, when merely trying to have a discussion can get you fired. Of course people will stop debating, and stop gaining insights from that debate.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#324

Post by cpach » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:01 AM UTC

This is definitely not the first time RMS has made damage to the free software movement by saying stupid things.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#325

Post by raxxorrax » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:02 AM UTC

chasing wrote: post #211

What he said was stupid and disgusting. People sometimes over-estimate the amount of latitude the organization they work for will give them to do this. The technology industry is taking baby-steps towards actual inclusivity and diversity of thought -- and not this dumbass "I want to be free to say stupid offensive shit with impunity" flavor of "inclusivity" that people around here seem to champion. That is a Good Thi…

If your "inclusivity" stops at Stallman, it seriously lacks performance. You use the wrong word. What you desire is conformity.

edit: Additionally, because I think this isn't obvious here, Stallman opened up the knowledge about software to the whole world and put energy in keeping it that way. Anyone was able to profit from this.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#326

Post by radres » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:02 AM UTC

I am sad to see the top comments on HN are whining about free speech. The guy is sick. I am glad he is kicked out.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#327

Post by sgammon » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:02 AM UTC

eecc wrote: post #300

Uhuhreally wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bollocks. Like Ricky Gervais said the other day actually you can say anything you like. People might not agree with you and that's fine.

Nope... people will not agree and call you out, drumming up outrage until you resign or get kicked out. From what I’ve read about the Cultural Revolution and Jaquereies, what’s going on looks pretty much the same mob pattern.

I think the idea is, let’s not revere or put in power people who do/say/espouse these kinds of views

Stallman is a legend, which means he has a great distance to fall. His point was lost in the fray. I wish he could’ve just kept it to a private conversation with a friend.

Obviously no child can consent to being pimped, for money or otherwise.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#328

Post by cpach » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:03 AM UTC

panny wrote: post #303

I never thought in a million years I'd see the Silicon Valley bubble become so deranged that they'd reverse polarity. Watching HN eat their own liberal legends like Stallman, at the direction of Fox News and NY Post. This is truly astonishing.

Both RMS and ESR are nut jobs. There are other people who can be better ambassadors for FLOSS than they are.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#329

Post by ajxs » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:04 AM UTC

robocat wrote: post #168

dlp211 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because RMS isn't just another socially awkward engineer. He is a leader and a part of a larger community and is therefore held to a higher standard. The reason for the higher standard is simple, leaders are entrusted with power and need to wield that power better than others. RMS has failed that test today.

> He is a leader and a part of a larger community and is therefore held to a higher standard. I see plenty of political and tech leaders set extremely low moral standards. Why is RMS being used to set an example? Do you think RMS actually hurt any children? His comments are tragically inept - but this seems to boil down to being targeted by breaking headlines such as the New York Post: "MIT scientist says Epstein vic…

I agree with you here. Stallman's comments on this topic are characteristically appalling, insensitive and pedantic, but I think the headlines printed about him are inaccurate and malicious. These publications have no stake in the matter of Stallman's status at MIT save to entice readers with the promise of scandal. I'm certainly not going to defend Stallman's character, but I think the retaliation against him is disproportionate. One can't help the feeling that when it comes to this kind of scandal there are plenty of bad actors willing to fan the flames for personal gain. I would definitely call into question the motivation of the authors of the articles on this event. Despite this, and despite the fact that I really dislike the modern use of the word 'problematic', I can't think of a better word to describe many of Stallman's statements and positions. For someone to be a community leader of any kind this kind of tone-deafness, even if only to politics, is unacceptable.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#330

Post by journalctl » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:04 AM UTC

bitwize wrote: post #201

aazaa wrote: post #14

I've seen some online cheering Stallman's resignation from MIT. I suspect they'll also be cheering about this resignation as well. But this is nothing to cheer about. Regardless of what low regard the man might be held as a person, he's being persecuted for having expressing ideas, demanding proof of claims, advocating for objective standards, and asking questions. These are all hallmarks of scientific inquiry. It se…

It's 2019. Social justice and "cancel culture" are intrinsic values to open source now, at least as much as sharing code and collaboration. The situation with Brendan Eich shows that if you have the wrong political views, you are not considered fit to serve as the leader of any open-source organization or project. especially not one with corporate backing. It's too much of a risk of PR disaster. So be careful. Corali…

I’m gay. Brendan Eich ACTIVELY supported an institution attempting to keep me from being equal. So yeah, if you have the wrong political views, like ones that consider some people unequal, you absolutely deserve to be shitcanned. I’m sorry if I have a hard time feeling bad for people like that. I hope we find and weed out every last bigot, because people like me have fought too long and too hard to still be subjected to this crap. We don’t deserve it. Nobody deserves it.