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Update on AB5

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321–330 of 343 posts

Re: Update on AB5

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In practice drivers do set their prices by only driving when the price is what they're willing to pay So your argument is that drivers really set the price... > (e.g. only during surge pricing) And your example of drivers setting the price is...algorithms running at Uber and Lyft that set prices. Algorithms which Uber and Lyft would surely regard as proprietary trade secrets and resist disclosing to drivers, passen…

What are you saying? Uber matches you to a willing driver to pick you up for $X, it's a competitive market so whatever "algorithm" you think they use it's the market that decides the price, but the driver "should" get $Y? Well you are free to tip $Y-$X to the driver then. Why don't you try that next time?

What competitive market? There is no spread, no bidding. Buyers and sellers cannot negotiate. Uber decides prices based on some proprietary, secret algorithm.

"We are going to pay you $X, if you don't like it you can leave" is called a salary, not a marketplace.

Re: Update on AB5

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice drivers do set their prices by only driving when the price is what they're willing to pay (e.g. only during surge pricing). In contrast to an employee that works specific hours and has to take every ride while on the clock.

> In practice drivers do set their prices by only driving when the price is what they're willing to pay So your argument is that drivers really set the price... > (e.g. only during surge pricing) And your example of drivers setting the price is...algorithms running at Uber and Lyft that set prices. Algorithms which Uber and Lyft would surely regard as proprietary trade secrets and resist disclosing to drivers, passen…

Similar to how many other independent contractors set their price - they decide what they are willing to work for and, as contracts come in, they either accept or reject based on what that contract is offering to pay.

Just like how contractors will have several contracts they are choosing between, drivers routinely use multiple apps in parallel so they can choose between various contracts/rides.

Re: Update on AB5

#323
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you saying? Uber matches you to a willing driver to pick you up for $X, it's a competitive market so whatever "algorithm" you think they use it's the market that decides the price, but the driver "should" get $Y? Well you are free to tip $Y-$X to the driver then. Why don't you try that next time?

What competitive market? There is no spread, no bidding. Buyers and sellers cannot negotiate. Uber decides prices based on some proprietary, secret algorithm. "We are going to pay you $X, if you don't like it you can leave" is called a salary, not a marketplace.

Not only that, but uber and lyft copy each other's prices. When one of them lowers the pay to drivers, the other one follows soon. Usually, the pay to drivers is lowered, but the cost to riders doesn't go down as much, and uber/lyft has been taking much more from drivers, especially the 'surge' surcharge. Much less of that goes to the driver than before.

Re: Update on AB5

#324
Uber always positions itself to be whatever is most advantageous for it given the current situation. Just a "technology-based platform", no, they are a just a modern taxi company that uses a tech platform.

I think for many "big tech" companies there needs to be a paradigm shift in how society views them, not as pure tech companies that produce technology solely for technology's sake, but like Uber - companies that use tech as a means to an end of a another business (in most cases). Facebook as a news company, Amazon as a retailer, Airbnb as a short term rental unit provider, etc. (these aren't all necessarily accurate descriptions).

Re: Update on AB5

#325
post #308
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment doesn't make sense to me (as a part time Uber driver myself). First, the driver doesn't see your destination until he picks you up. Second, there is no competition or reason to rush to "mash" the button, the ride request is exclusive to you as a driver for the 10 seconds that you see it.

Drivers often call you and ask you where your drop location is. Depending on your answer, they often cancel. Or worse, ask you to cancel. I've even had cancellations after I've sat in the car.

Doesn't that basically give them a bad mark and cause the software to no longer give them rides? I mean that's grounds for firing if it was a regular taxi company.

Re: Update on AB5

#326
post #167
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don't work in sweatshops because they love the job, they do it because they are desperate People don't work in sweatshops because they love the job, they do it because its better than any of their alternatives

I would be curious to hear you expand on your point here. It is in the format of a correction that is refuting my comment, but I honestly see those two statements as nearly identical. People are desperate because they don't have any other better alternatives.

Not the OC, but I’ve heard that comment line often:

- what appears like sweatshops are actually significantly preferable working conditions for the local population; workshops are hot and crowded sure, but it’s sheltered and beats back-breaking farming, where pests can eat your yearly revenue overnight; (that point you agree with, as far as I can tell)

- so much that, in some conditions “sweatshops” are a positive thing and local people are excited over it: they show up early, some singing, in their best clothes; (I have no evidence of this handy right now, you might disagree but if you read the first point, it shouldn’t be a surprise); example of that is the young rural Chinese workers who were happy to be hosted on bunk beds at Foxconn and others because that meant they could save more money, talking about it like Facebook grads talk about free food; that effect might not last, doesn’t appear to have for Foxconn (or Facebook);

- in the early conditions, “sweatshops” are great and external political forces trying to ban them, or more often regulate them out of profitability i.e. existence, comes off as horribly misguided attempts; an extreme version of “better is the enemy of good” difficult to parse for a population without many options;

- adding expensive controls works against workers’ expressed interests that could be either a. legitimate but conditional (they need the money and the local standards are low, working fast is a tiring but reasonable way to achieve their goal) or b. the capitalist version of Stockholm syndrome. In my experience, it’s nowhere easy to sort the two edge-cases apart. If that’s the case, a market-liberal option is to let bad employers loose their workers by making sure there’s low employment overall, the places with real opportunities can poach them away. Also essential: personal growth needs to happen; I wasn’t super hopeful that “the market” would deliver until Lambda school.

That line of reasoning has been the first criticism of trade and workers’ unions since the XIXth century and the vertiginous growth of the Industrial revolution: they defend current tradesmen and employees against newcomers. I think trade unions can do amazing things to help spread the wealth but I would be wary about that edge.

There are newer arguments in favour of Uber in that sense:

- how easy it is to get a job, fast even: a massive upside of Uber is that you can enrol under a day and get paid within seconds of dropping your passenger; people with stranger schedules, deaf people, with non-violent criminal background have testified in that sense; anyone familiar with “Growth”, especially on a platform would recognise the approach;

- at this point, “unintended” consequences are widely documented; public servants should expect rules like that would back-fire, and adapt their rulings; Uber’s margins or lack thereof are public; other similar companies have left markets, leaving their workers in the dust; it’s easy to confuse the valuation of an IPO with free cash, to mistake Growth for Profit (God knows every reporter covering tech makes that mistake) but I doubt that Uber can afford to raise compensation by a lot;

- there are now many alternatives in the gig-economy: bad employers cannot retain workers; e.g. Amazon’s warehouse would not retain anyone if they were that bad. I’m less familiar with Amazon and convinced by that one, but if you go on money-making/saving forums, you’ll notice how so many contributors have tried and compared dozens of gig-platforms. The common thread? Everyone there started by being excluded from the standard employment market by personal circumstances, unintended consequences of regulation, prejudice or sometimes just being a terrible human begin. But that’s the starting point.

I really don’t think that the gig economy is the solution: banning 29-hour limits, having incentives to accommodate for handicap, family life, etc. for any business that can shift hours also need to be in place. Few people want a series of gigs; for the few who do, what many of those companies have done isn’t worse than the alternative. For the many who want a stable, predictable job, I don’t think the solution is to regulate industries where tasks are, say, very time-specific.

Disclaimer: I’ve worked for Deliveroo (the non-US equivalent to Doordash) and dealt with those questions a lot. I’m overall proud of the work there, from many personal contacts with riders; I also have a litany of complaints handy, mainly because it was my job to prioritise them all (and there were a lot and many were really bad but not as bad as unemployment/dealing drugs/failing to make it as a Grime singer).

I would have a more critical take against Uber Taxi, mainly around how they abused the financial illiteracy of their workers. That’s one aspect I would certainly want to see regulated.

Re: Update on AB5

#327
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drivers often call you and ask you where your drop location is. Depending on your answer, they often cancel. Or worse, ask you to cancel. I've even had cancellations after I've sat in the car.

Doesn't that basically give them a bad mark and cause the software to no longer give them rides? I mean that's grounds for firing if it was a regular taxi company.

I'm not based out of US, so the experience will vary. My understanding of drivers getting bad marked is that here the demand for Uber at peak times is still larger than the supply, hence even though you might be penalised via de-prioritisation, uber would still get you a ride to fulfil. They are also penalised by being given lower pay incentives. But talking to most drivers, the trade-offs of cancelling are worth it for them, since they often cancel drop locations from where demand would be lower, or to far off places where they wouldn't get another ride to complete, or have to go out of the way to return to the area they generally are comfortable operating in.

Whenever I've raised this issue with Uber(via their absurdly bad support feature), I generally get an automated response in the line of "We're so sorry for the bad experience, we understand that this has caused you a lot of trouble... We take your feedback seriously..", etc.

Re: Update on AB5

#328
post #308
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment doesn't make sense to me (as a part time Uber driver myself). First, the driver doesn't see your destination until he picks you up. Second, there is no competition or reason to rush to "mash" the button, the ride request is exclusive to you as a driver for the 10 seconds that you see it.

Drivers often call you and ask you where your drop location is. Depending on your answer, they often cancel. Or worse, ask you to cancel. I've even had cancellations after I've sat in the car.

Lyft is the worst about this, I assumed Uber penalizes them because i can’t recall it happening in the past 6 months with them, but I’ll get back to back Lyft call & cancels.

Re: Update on AB5

#329
post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Part of me thinks Uber could get away with this if they just relaxed some of their current driver policies (e.g. more limited penalties for cancellations). The issue is whether doing so would drastically deteriorate the quality of the service for riders. I'm going to go with yes. The only times I use ride sharing services (Lyft, not Uber) are in high-density situations like getting to and from the airport. Dependin…

Oddly enough cancellations have been much worse for me this year when trying to go from SF->Oakland. Most infuriating is when drivers come close enough to lie and say they're at the pickup spot (showing them my destination) then just drive away without stopping. I mostly use Lyft, so I'm not sure if this is a problem with Uber as well.

I noted elsewhere, but for me it’s super common with Lyft and super rare with Uber.

Re: Update on AB5

#330
post #121

I think there is more truth to their argument than people are giving them credit for. It seems like an in bad faith perspective to not give their claim some credence. It makes YOUR argument stronger to first make the best version of Ubers argument before rebutting it. Does it make me a Microsoft employee if I use Outlook to conduct business? Does it make me an Ebay employee if I sell things through ebay? Until Uber e…

> The fact alone that they can have two messaging/dispatch apps open at once, on two phones, makes me question, which company do you think the driver works for? Both simultaneously?

I'm not saying you are guilty of this, but I think many of us with full-time, salaried jobs tend to not be able to grasp that yes, you can be an employee of multiple companies simultaneously.

You can't necessarily be paid by more than one employer for the same unit of time -- but that's not what's happening here.

If a driver who is an employee of both platforms accepts a Lyft ride, they are working as an employee for that one company for the duration of the ride. If they then accept an Uber ride, they are working as an employee for that one company for the duration of the ride.

Keep in mind there's no minimum amount of time you have to work to be considered working as an employee. Even if you're clocking in for just 5 minutes, you're still a working employee for those 5 minutes and should get paid for those 5 minutes.

The only difference between this type of employment relationship and traditional employment relationships is that at least in theory, the drivers can set their own working hours. Although the degree to which Uber and Lyft exert influence over drivers' working hours makes me wonder just how freely chosen they are.

But even if Uber, Lyft, and the like are able to argue that drivers can freely chose their working hours, that's NOT the only criterion necessary to be considered contractors. It is possible to be able to freely chose your own working hours yet still be classified properly as an employee, provided other factors point toward an employment relationship.

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