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Firefox has lots of room to improve if it wants to beat Chrome

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Re: Firefox has lots of room to improve if it wants to beat Chrome

#321

Post by JoshMnem »

NullInvictus wrote: post #32

I haven't really met anyone who is particularly bothered by these issues. They certainly should be addressed to some degree, but the issues I find people are bothered about in Firefox are something that Mozilla has very little control over: Bugs in sites. As a full-time firefox user, I commonly find that sites have bugs, and when I boot it up in Chrome just to check my hunch, they don't manifest. It's pretty easy to…

Or just develop on Firefox. Some of its dev tools are better than Chrome's. Mozilla should keep working towards making Firefox better for web developers.

Web developers can help by using and endorsing Firefox in their coding tutorials/videos/screenshots.

https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/developer/

Re: Firefox has lots of room to improve if it wants to beat Chrome

#322

Post by deergomoo »

connicpu wrote: post #288
tragic wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, I know some things simply can't be done without a JS webapp, but not all and probably not even a majority, so if HTML and CSS will do the job fine, then so be it; and even if it needs to use JS, it likely doesn't need to be latest-browser-only JS either. Sticking to HTML and CSS won't necessarily get rid of this - new stuff is being added to CSS all the time, in particular. And browser support is just as patch…

But when a browser doesn't fully support a CSS feature most of the time is your site just looks a little wrong. Unless it's a major feature, the site will probably still be functional to the user.

The flip side of this is that many new JavaScript features can be either transpiled to ES5 syntax, or polyfilled. It will be great when we don’t need to anymore, but I’m always pleasantly surprised by just how much modern JS can be used in, say, IE11, just by having Babel be part of the build step.

CSS unfortunately doesn’t work that way, so apart from graceful degradation you’re out of luck.

Re: Firefox has lots of room to improve if it wants to beat Chrome

#323

Post by inetknght »

cageface wrote: post #61
userbinator wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If developers are genuinely concerned with browser diversity and not handing the Web over to Google and whatever they deem to be the next IE6, it starts with having a test plan for other browsers. I'd say it starts with dialing back the "new feature/change fetish" that a lot of web developers have. Yes, I know some things simply can't be done without a JS webapp, but not all and probably not even a majority, so if HT…

The problem with this is that the web is competing with native apps. A vanilla HTML site might be good enough in some cases but often you really need to push the envelope of what’s possible the web and that’s hard to do and also support niche browsers on a tight development budget.

> The problem with this is that the web is competing with native apps.

No it isn't. Competition with native apps is the completely wrong way to think of it. The web should complement native apps.

Re: Firefox has lots of room to improve if it wants to beat Chrome

#325

Post by notyourword »

pjmlp wrote: post #120
potench wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can install a “progressive web app” as a native Android app now. There’s been a big push to develop PWAs on the heels of react and single page apps for a couple years now - google is doing a good job trying to support the web as users move so aggressively to mobile. Facebook basically has its own browser in-app(iOS and Android), i bet that browser has more traffic than Firefox.

Google is a bit schizophrenic though. You can watch IO talks from Android, Chrome, Flutter where the presenter eventually throws some jabs at other competing stacks as if they aren't from the same employer.

Using the word schizophrenic like that contributes to the stigma associated with psychotic mental illness. It is ableist to use a disability you don't have as a metaphor.

Re: Firefox has lots of room to improve if it wants to beat Chrome

#326

Post by jstummbillig »

isostatic wrote: post #305
JadoJodo wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As inconvenient as powering through this bug might be, switching to Chrome to use this site just reinforces their choice. Perhaps emailing them to report the issue might also be beneficial for all?

I changed bank - I had an account with a bank (RBS?) in the late 90s / early 00s, couldn't access it from linux, yet I could access HSBC, so RBS lost my custom. My current bank (Smile) works in Firefox on linux, so that's fine. If it didn't, they'll be losing my custom.

Sometimes I am astonished by the life other people apparently lead. For example when they'd invest the energy to switch their bank (and all that is attached to that) over using a different browser to access a singular website.

I do not understand. It boggles my mind, in the most curious way.

Re: Firefox has lots of room to improve if it wants to beat Chrome

#327

Post by The_rationalist »

soperj wrote: post #284
tragic wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, I know some things simply can't be done without a JS webapp, but not all and probably not even a majority, so if HTML and CSS will do the job fine, then so be it; and even if it needs to use JS, it likely doesn't need to be latest-browser-only JS either. Sticking to HTML and CSS won't necessarily get rid of this - new stuff is being added to CSS all the time, in particular. And browser support is just as patch…

How much new css do you actually use though w/ patchy browser support?

There are many essential css properties that Firefox doesn't support, e.g fit-content

Re: Firefox has lots of room to improve if it wants to beat Chrome

#329

Post by deergomoo »

userbinator wrote: post #42
NullInvictus wrote: post #32

I haven't really met anyone who is particularly bothered by these issues. They certainly should be addressed to some degree, but the issues I find people are bothered about in Firefox are something that Mozilla has very little control over: Bugs in sites. As a full-time firefox user, I commonly find that sites have bugs, and when I boot it up in Chrome just to check my hunch, they don't manifest. It's pretty easy to…

If developers are genuinely concerned with browser diversity and not handing the Web over to Google and whatever they deem to be the next IE6, it starts with having a test plan for other browsers. I'd say it starts with dialing back the "new feature/change fetish" that a lot of web developers have. Yes, I know some things simply can't be done without a JS webapp, but not all and probably not even a majority, so if HT…

> I'd say it starts with dialing back the "new feature/change fetish" that a lot of web developers have

I wonder whether this phenomenon is driven by HTML, CSS, and JavaScript being such lacklustre tools for building applications?

Many things that are completely reasonable to deal with in any “native” stack (animations, local storage, offline access, hardware access, accessibility just to name a few), while usually possible with a web stack, are often unnecessarily difficult or awkward.

Things are improving fairly rapidly because of the insistence that everything should be web based these days, and I could totally see that driving people to the bleeding edge.

I mean hell, I do it myself. I’m a web developer, and when reading about shiny new features I’m often eager to start using them ASAP — especially when it would replace a bunch of kludgy JavaScript I’d been relying on previously.

Re: Firefox has lots of room to improve if it wants to beat Chrome

#330

Post by ori_b »

brianpgordon wrote: post #57

> While I understand that they have to make money somehow I don't. I don't understand how Mozilla has over a thousand employees and over 500 million dollars in annual revenue. With that kind of money, Firefox should be absolutely dominating the browser space. They shouldn't be making Firefox worse with advertising in order to subsidize their flailing around trying to find traction in mobile or VR. It actually reminds…

> I don't. I don't understand how Mozilla has over a thousand employees and over 500 million dollars in annual revenue. With that kind of money, Firefox should be absolutely dominating the browser space.

What's Chrome's budget?

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