Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated • Hacker News Board

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#321

Post by cannonedhamster » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 3:46 AM UTC

pokeymcsnatch wrote: post #114

cannonedhamster wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's food/greade on the item that can't be removed for one reason or another toss it, it can't be recycled efficiently. There solved your moral dilemma. Generally only clean paper, glass, and metal are recyclable. Plastics depend entirely on the locality and still require it to be clean. Also I work at a food pantry. Donations of canned goods are always welcome, same for razors, toiletries, etc. Anything that c…

> There solved your moral dilemma. Recycling has built up such inertia as the "moral" path, regardless of its inefficiencies for most materials, that it's become an unsustainable clusterfuck that we can't move away. Where I live, it's been codified- municipalities must recycle, and also must discourage landfill-bound waste. The result is that I've been issued a 64-gallon mixed-recycling bin that is picked up once a w…

You're not going to solve the problem and your municipality isn't helping unless it burning the garbage, because that's what contaminated loads are. There's absolutely no reason to have multi stream plastics recycling at the consumer end, save for plastic bags because at scale they can be recycled. Only a very small amount of plastics are monetarily valuable. I would not feel guilty at all about throwing out plastics unless they are clean and food free. It's pointlessly wasteful as most processing plants in the US cannot handle soiled recyclables efficiently if at all. I say this as a long time, Earth hugging, reusable bag toting, fuel efficient vehicle recycler. The US is not a major contributor to plastics pollution. There should be no moral dilemma here. Just by trying to do the right thing in this case you're doing. If you want to do more have a cheese pizza night once a week instead of one with meat toppings and you'll significantly reduce your carbon footprint with minimal change to your lifestyle. If doing the by the planet is your thing having one vegetarian meal that you enjoy a week is going to be significantly more impactful at keeping the planet cleaner and using less resources (the reduce part of the 3rs) than most of the plastics recycling you do. Contaminated glass, plastics, and paper can ruin an entire comingled load which generally happens anyways.

Some specifics on ocean plastics that covers a bit of general plastics.

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4671

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#322

Post by henrikschroder » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 6:07 AM UTC

aeternus wrote: post #311

henrikschroder wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative to recycling newspaper and cardboard is chopping down forests and turning them into pulp, a process that also needs a lot more logistics, chemicals, energy, and of course forests that you have to re-plant. Recycling newspaper is a no-brainer from a cost perspective. You can't recycle forever though, each time you lose some wood fibers that are too short and have to be removed from the recycled pulp, s…

Pretty much all paper manufacturers are now require to plant more trees than they cut down. Burying old newspapers in the ground is a form of carbon sequestration. Really it comes down to what takes less energy: cutting down the trees, or the transport, sorting and reprocessing of old newspapers.

Upthread someone quoted a study that showed recycling newspaper used 60% of the energy compared to cutting down trees and making pulp.

So like I said, it's a no-brainer to recycle newspapers.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#323

Post by swish_bob » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 8:10 AM UTC

rikroots wrote: post #302

navigatesol wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That seems to be the issue, not the recycling program. The recycling program requires the cans be clean, so someone, somewhere is washing them.

In our household we wash our glass and metal packaging for recycling in the old-fashioned way, with water and suds in the sink alongside the rest of the post-dinner washing up. It's a lot quicker than a dishwasher, uses a lot less water and detergent, and quite relaxing and therapeutic in its own weird way. (Takes time out to shine halo)

It turns out that you're nearly always using less water, soap and electricity if you wash using a dishwasher rather than by hand.

https://www.treehugger.com/kitchen-design/built-in-dishwashe...

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#324

Post by lopespm » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 9:15 AM UTC

"By contrast, reusable metal straws and canvas bags require something like 10-100x the energy and materials to manufacture, and need regular cleaning to avoid spreading disease. So unless you use them many times, they end up being worse for the environment. I lose them much faster than that, and have better things to do with my attention than remember to bring bags with me everywhere I go, so I just use those old-school plastic bags whenever I can."

This is not a valid argument. A bad habit should not be a justification for a devious behavior. I would even argue it is easier to bring your reusable container of choice when going shopping, and if that habit is really formed, then you wont be able to exit your home or car without it, because something will seem to be missing. Take for example the backpack or "granny cart". They are much more comfortable to use when compared to lugging around many plastics bags around your hands, and the granny cart is much better for your back.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#325

Post by dgacmu » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 9:57 AM UTC

Liron wrote: post #43

Skunkleton wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea was that hybrid cars are a sort of local maxima that has stalled real progress (alternative energy cars).

Yeah, hybrid cars might be called a "local maximum"... at best. "Local" because they were always predictably a technological dead end. "Maximum" because they maybe gave us a slight improvement in fuel efficiency, although gas-efficient internal combustion engine cars may have been the more energy-efficient option all along when you consider the up-front cost and maintenance complexity of hybrid cars' dual engines. Th…

This is not correct. It depends quite a bit on commute patterns and electricity source:

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/11/4/04...

The Prius is a better option from a lifecycle CO2 perspective in many places than either a high efficiency conventional vehicle or a pure battery-electric vehicle. That changes if your electricity comes from more renewable sources -- California, for example. Shorter commutes favor small battery packs or no batteries at all.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#326

Post by tylergetsay » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 10:39 AM UTC

lopespm wrote: post #324

"By contrast, reusable metal straws and canvas bags require something like 10-100x the energy and materials to manufacture, and need regular cleaning to avoid spreading disease. So unless you use them many times, they end up being worse for the environment. I lose them much faster than that, and have better things to do with my attention than remember to bring bags with me everywhere I go, so I just use those old-sch…

I would consider losing a metal straw or canvas bag as negligent, but devious?

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#327

Post by chimprich » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 10:58 AM UTC

gruez wrote: post #308

chimprich wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a very selective interpretation of that paper. The study found that some types of reusable bag needed many uses before being a better environmental option than thin plastic bags (e.g. cotton). Other bags, such as sturdier plastic bags designed for reuse were much better options, needing only a few uses to break even, environmentally speaking. Anyway, 50+ (or 100+) uses - a year or two of weekly shopping - doe…

>Other bags, such as sturdier plastic bags designed for reuse were much better options, needing only a few uses to break even, environmentally speaking. "a few uses" is only true when you're only considering climate change. it's 50+ when you consider all factors. >Anyway, 50+ (or 100+) uses - a year or two of weekly shopping - does not seem unreasonable for a cotton bag. The issue here is that at 1 shopping trip per…

No, that is not my understanding of the paper.

It's 4 uses for a heavy-duty "bag for life" to be better for the environment than a disposable one.

As supported by this Environment Agency report: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

6 billion fewer plastic bags were issues in the UK after they started getting taxed. That's only a small amount of CO2 saved per bag, but not negligible on a national scale, and it's completely avoidable.

Plus you only have to have a very small percentage out of 6 billion bags escaping the standard refuse system for them to become an environmental problem in themselves.

I think it is well worth it.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#328

Post by KozmoNau7 » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 11:00 AM UTC

gruez wrote: post #135

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That study only looked at resource usage, and not the consequences of carelessly discarded shopping bags clogging up rivers and beaches. The best shopping bag to use is still an upcycled bag made from otherwise discarded material, as you are not creating demand for the production of new bags. Sail cloth is a good sturdy fabric, and a bag made from it will literally last you a lifetime.

>and not the consequences of carelessly discarded shopping bags clogging up rivers and beaches. 1. plastic garbage winding up in rivers is largely a developing country problem. I don't see many plastic bags (if at all) in my local waterways. 2. why not just responsibly dispose of those bags? It's not hard. They're not going to get lost when you're using them. After that, you're probably home, or at least some place w…

>"why not just responsibly dispose of those bags? It's not hard."

And yet a lot of people carelessly throw away their plastic bags. Their laziness trumps your "it's not hard". Something primarily being a problem in developing countries is not an excuse for not caring about it.

"I don't see any, so it must not be a problem" is not a valid argument. If you've ever tried to remove a plastic bag that was half-buried in sand, you would know. That bag could sit there for hundreds of years without degrading.

My point is that it's better to not have new bags/material made at all. Repurpose something that was already made and used for other purposes, and you lessen the footprint. It doesn't have to be cotton, the woven bags made from recycled plastic are quite durable and long-lasting. In my case, I do have cotton shopping bags, but they're all hand-me-downs from family, I would never buy a brand-new one.

If you want something made from upcycled sail cloth or similar repurposed materials, there are a number of companies who will happily sell you some, including customization.

Remember, it's "reduce, reuse, recycle, in that order.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#329

Post by lonelappde » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 12:57 PM UTC

triangulum wrote: post #129

pokeymcsnatch wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There solved your moral dilemma. Recycling has built up such inertia as the "moral" path, regardless of its inefficiencies for most materials, that it's become an unsustainable clusterfuck that we can't move away. Where I live, it's been codified- municipalities must recycle, and also must discourage landfill-bound waste. The result is that I've been issued a 64-gallon mixed-recycling bin that is picked up once a w…

That’s a good point: if municipalities want you to recycle, they need to provide the necessary infrastructure, and that means at least three source separated bins (ideally 5-7), and a clean container collection system. Otherwise it just turns people off the whole system. A financial incentive to save money when you don’t throw away as much into the landfill bin helps too. Any chance you could compost the kitchen scra…

You think consumers are going to have 3-7 bins in their homes?

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#330

Post by bobwaycott » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 1:31 PM UTC

spodek wrote: post #54

Reducing is strategic. Reusing and recycling are tactical. If your strategy is in place, use all the tactics that contribute to it. But if you don't have your strategy in place, tactics can do nothing or even move you backward. Corporations like recycling because it promotes growth -- the opposite of reduction. We are stepping on the gas, thinking we're stepping on the brake. Covered in episode 183 of Leadership and…

> Corporations like recycling because it promotes growth -- the opposite of reduction.

Put a bit more directly, corporations like recycling because it shifts the burdens of waste onto consumers and society at large, while allowing them to continue pursuing growth and privately concentrating profits.