Live data from Hacker News

Gab will become a Mastodon fork

gab.com

321–330 of 335 posts

Re: Gab will become a Mastodon fork

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If those people become the majority (which, terrifyingly, no longer seems outside of the realm of possibility), you and those who share your beliefs might become the ones needing the protections of free speech and the ability to circumvent deplatforming. _Now_ do you see why maintaining free speech protections is important?

I have no faith that those people would respect my rights of free speech at all. It is explicitly not part of their ideology. In my view, believing that if you defend free speech hard enough the forces of fascism and hate will become interested in "hearing all perspectives" is incredibly naive. To be clear, I do not think it should be illegal or impossible to express hateful views. I don't think there needs to be som…

> have no faith that those people would respect my rights of free speech at all.

This sounds like a defect-defect equilibrium taking shape.

Re: Gab will become a Mastodon fork

#322
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That won't happen because the constant alarmism about censorship is part of the appeal. "Your rights are being violated by the Hollywood/feminists/liberal elites! Send me money so I can tell you how to combat this scourge with Logic & Reason (TM)" People like J Peterson and Sargon could deal with being deplatformed in the way they preach to their disciples, but instead they whine about it while shaking their e-collec…

I suspect the type of dismisiveness you show towards large swaths of the populace's opinions contributes to the success of folks like JBP and Sargon

On the contrary, the rise of my dismissiveness comes from the emergence and popularity of grifters like JBP and Sargon, who seem to only favor freedom of speech for bullying, but never seem to protest any actual freedom of speech issues at home or abroad (like Ortega gunning down protesters), in addition to having to listen to his fans parrot a lot of strange claims he had no qualifications to make or relevant knowledge of.

Re: Gab will become a Mastodon fork

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So American firms are guilty of foreign interference in elections now, are they? Oh the irony.

I'm sure you know this already, but declining to serve some users is not on its own interfering in foreign elections.

Those politicians disagree! This seems a rather tortuous definition of "interfere" regardless. Censorship is ok, speech isn't ok?

Re: Gab will become a Mastodon fork

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure you know this already, but declining to serve some users is not on its own interfering in foreign elections.

Those politicians disagree! This seems a rather tortuous definition of "interfere" regardless. Censorship is ok, speech isn't ok?

Freedom of association means that businesses can generally serve who they want. Declining to serve spammers is not "interfering in foreign commerce". Declining to serve abusive jerks is not "interfering in foreign elections".

Freedom of speech is not a right to a platform. Freedom of speech also isn't the freedom of consequences from one's speech. I'm free to say what I want. Other people are free to, based on that speech, decide I'm an asshole and that they don't want anything to do with me.

Re: Gab will become a Mastodon fork

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can handwave all you like about the (vague, unspecified) horrible cost. There is a place on Earth where opinions deemed to be bad are vigilantly monitored for and instantly deplatformed: The People's Republic of China. Is that truly the future you wish for? Reading these posts from the modern left is ghastly to those of us who remain old school liberals. To defeat their opponents and prevent them from crushing…

Sure, and I agree the government shouldn't have that power. Duh. I'm just saying that free citizens should not be obligated to serve Nazis or publish their content. And also that citizens should be able to criticize those who do. My position here is consistently pro-freedom. Specifically, I'm for free speech and free association. Note also that actual Chinese people think your position, that criticism is equivalent t…

> I'm just saying that free citizens should not be obligated to serve Nazis or publish their content. ... Specifically, I'm for free speech and free association.

The analogy with Nietzsche's quote gets even closer. Much the same pious rhetoric about free association was once used by your opponents to defend their denial of service to various racial and religious groups. It took years of activism to get legislation that recognized that freedom of association had to be limited to stop discrimination against protected classes. Consider that California has recently enacted legislation that recognizes political affiliation as a protected class in the workplace; that is the spirit and philosophy of liberalism.

And, for the record, no, no one should want to provide service to Nazis or other hate groups. But once denying services to groups becomes normalized as a political weapon, we are pretty much guaranteed that it will eventually be misused.

> ...that criticism is equivalent to what the PRC does, is hyperbolic pants-wetting

I note that you have deftly slipped in the word "criticism" here when the topic was deplatforming. Criticism is, of course, not equivalent to what the PRC does but deplatforming most assuredly is.

Re: Gab will become a Mastodon fork

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read my original comment you'll see I am not actually calling for censorship. I am calling for any developers responsible for providing Gab with technical assistance to re-evaluate what they are doing with their skills. It's a matter of professional ethics and it matters quite a bit to me. If they are helping Gab in any capacity they either agree with the content on it, or are taking a cynical payday. Either w…

> If you read my original comment you'll see I am not actually calling for censorship. I am calling for any developers responsible for providing Gab with technical assistance to re-evaluate what they are doing with their skills. It's a matter of professional ethics and it matters quite a bit to me. If they are helping Gab in any capacity they either agree with the content on it, or are taking a cynical payday. Either…

> You ARE calling for censorship.

No I'm not. No amount of caps lock changes that and the entire rest of your argument rests on this point [0].

People have a right to say what they want its true. I am simply saying we have no obligation to make their message easier to find. Nor do we have any obligation to connect people of like mind. In this specific case I am calling out those developers responsible for helping Gab and telling them I think they are morally repugnant. My stance in the original comment was that of professional ethics. If you help platforms like Gab stay online, I think you should be ashamed.

> And here we get to the crux of what you completely ignored in my previous post: the censorship you're demanding DOESN'T PROTECT THE VULNERABLE.

I didn't ignore your argument. I disagree with it because you are trying to assert a position that I am not taking. De-platforming does work. It's not about preventing someone from saying something. It's about adding friction to their ability to spread that message. Vulnerable communities ask for it all the time. People can say whatever they want it's true but the world is not obligated to amplify that message.

While we are at it, what about disinformation campaigns from hostile foreign governments? Anti-vaxxers? Climate change deniers? Bots? Trolls? Does all that get to continue unabated? Hows that working out?

We are living in an unprecedented time where objective truth is no longer collectively agreed upon and fringe viewpoints have made their way to the mainstream. I will happily admit that I don't have all the answers but I can tell you that the status quo is not working and we need to start thinking out of the box.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Re: Gab will become a Mastodon fork

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If those people become the majority (which, terrifyingly, no longer seems outside of the realm of possibility), you and those who share your beliefs might become the ones needing the protections of free speech and the ability to circumvent deplatforming. _Now_ do you see why maintaining free speech protections is important?

I have no faith that those people would respect my rights of free speech at all. It is explicitly not part of their ideology. In my view, believing that if you defend free speech hard enough the forces of fascism and hate will become interested in "hearing all perspectives" is incredibly naive. To be clear, I do not think it should be illegal or impossible to express hateful views. I don't think there needs to be som…

> I have no faith that those people would respect my rights of free speech at all. It is explicitly not part of their ideology.

Sure, that isn't unlikely. However, does that make it okay for the left to be the first to disrespect their free speech rights? "Our opponents would oppress at us as soon as they get the chance so we'll do our best to oppress them first"? Clearly, that's not right.

> In my view, believing that if you defend free speech hard enough the forces of fascism and hate will become interested in "hearing all perspectives" is incredibly naive.

Again, true, the true believers will never be convinced by any amount of debate or evidence. But that tends to be a relatively small group in any movement. It's the undecided silent majority that needs to be kept on your side and taking the moral low road is sure to alienate them, with disastrous consequences.

Re: Gab will become a Mastodon fork

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you read my original comment you'll see I am not actually calling for censorship. I am calling for any developers responsible for providing Gab with technical assistance to re-evaluate what they are doing with their skills. It's a matter of professional ethics and it matters quite a bit to me. If they are helping Gab in any capacity they either agree with the content on it, or are taking a cynical payday. Either…

> You ARE calling for censorship. No I'm not. No amount of caps lock changes that and the entire rest of your argument rests on this point [0]. People have a right to say what they want its true. I am simply saying we have no obligation to make their message easier to find. Nor do we have any obligation to connect people of like mind. In this specific case I am calling out those developers responsible for helping Gab…

I stand by what I said: you ARE ignoring my core points. If you want to prove otherwise, please provide answers to these simple questions:

1. What do you think happens to racists when they are no longer allowed to talk? Do they suddenly become not racist? Disappear in a puff of smoke?

2. How do you propose we change racists minds if not by talking to them?

3. Do you think corporate platforms will always only make progressive ideas easier to find? Or are you open to the possibility that if we allow companies to pick and choose what speech they make easier to find, they may choose ideas you disagree with to make easier to find?

> People have a right to say what they want its true. I am simply saying we have no obligation to make their message easier to find.

You're saying people have a right to say what they want, but then you're proposing that Gab not make it easier to find certain messages by not allowing people who say that message to say what they want. So which is it: do people have a right to say what they want, or not?

You just want to say you're pro free speech and anti-censorship, so you're saying "make their message easier to find" instead of "allow them free speech on your platform", but they're the exact same thing. A rose by another name would smell as sweet.

Keep in mind, platforms like Reddit/Twitter/Facebook originally sold themselves as communications platforms. I doubt even you would be okay with telephone companies refusing to connect calls between people they don't like--why is it okay for a newer communications platform to refuse service to people they don't like?

> De-platforming does work.

No, it absolutely does not. When Reddit censored bigots, they just went to Voat, and now they have a community where if they say something reprehensible, nobody downvotes them or counterargues. We've just put them in an echo chamber where they can organize and communicate unchallenged, without hearing any reasonable viewpoints.

Even if every single open-minded person on the planet refused to allow racists to post on their websites, racists would just create their own websites. Do you really think there are no racists or terrorists or anti-vaxxers who are capable of writing a Twitter/Gab clone?

> While we are at it, what about disinformation campaigns from hostile foreign governments? Anti-vaxxers? Climate change deniers? Bots? Trolls? Does all that get to continue unabated? Hows that working out?

> We are living in an unprecedented time where objective truth is no longer collectively agreed upon and fringe viewpoints have made their way to the mainstream.

Objective truth has NEVER been collectively agreed upon. All the objectionable groups you mention existed before the internet. Crazies have ALWAYS existed.

What's different now is that with increased communication, mixing of communities, and the loss of social inhibitions caused by the anonymity and impersonality of the internet, sane people are suddenly confronted with the craziness that has always existed.

And yes, crazy people are able to communicate with each other in unprecedented ways. But that cat's out of the bag--unless you're proposing that we shut down the entire internet, they're going to be able to communicate, whether it be on Twitter or Mastadon or Gab or some equivalent platform created for racists by racists.

But the flipside is that SANE people are able to communicate with crazies in unprecedented ways. Where previously a racist could live their entire life only talking to their racist family and neighbors, now a person of color from the other side of the world away can call them out when they post something racist on Twitter, and tell them that what they are saying isn't true.

If we push the crazies off mainstream platforms, that doesn't solve the problem--they just go on being crazies. But if we allow them to communicate on mainstream platforms, we get to explain to them why their crazy beliefs are wrong. Over and over again, publicly, so that anyone who comes across bigoted or hateful or otherwise harmful ideas also comes across the truth. It's much more difficult than sweeping racists under the carpet and pretending they don't exist, but it actually stands a chance of changing racists into open-minded people.

> I will happily admit that I don't have all the answers but I can tell you that the status quo is not working and we need to start thinking out of the box.

Let's look at what the status quo is:

Reddit: "You agree not to use any obscene, indecent, or offensive language or to provide to or post on or through the Website any graphics, text, photographs, images, video, audio or other material that is defamatory, abusive, bullying, harassing, racist, hateful, or violent. You agree to refrain from ethnic slurs, religious intolerance, homophobia, and personal attacks when using the Website."

Twitter: "Hateful conduct: You may not promote violence against, threaten, or harass other people on the basis of race, ethnicity, national origin, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, religious affiliation, age, disability, or serious disease."

Facebook: "We define hate speech as a direct attack on people based on what we call protected characteristics — race, ethnicity, national origin, religious affiliation, sexual orientation, caste, sex, gender, gender identity, and serious disease or disability. We also provide some protections for immigration status. We define attack as violent or dehumanizing speech, statements of inferiority, or calls for exclusion or segregation."

The status quo is already doing exactly what you want, and it's not working. So yes, I agree the status quo is not working.

Re: Gab will become a Mastodon fork

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You ARE calling for censorship. No I'm not. No amount of caps lock changes that and the entire rest of your argument rests on this point [0]. People have a right to say what they want its true. I am simply saying we have no obligation to make their message easier to find. Nor do we have any obligation to connect people of like mind. In this specific case I am calling out those developers responsible for helping Gab…

I stand by what I said: you ARE ignoring my core points. If you want to prove otherwise, please provide answers to these simple questions: 1. What do you think happens to racists when they are no longer allowed to talk? Do they suddenly become not racist? Disappear in a puff of smoke? 2. How do you propose we change racists minds if not by talking to them? 3. Do you think corporate platforms will always only make pro…

Theres that caps lock again...

1. Of course not. I am not an idiot. Fringe viewpoints belong on the fringes. It's why they are called that.

2. You don't and can't. It's been shown that when they do change their minds it's often through indirect means.

3. A company has a right to do whatever it wants within the confines of the law. I am saying they should make better choices and shame on the ones that don't.

This argument has gotten circular and pointless. The tone of your responses has gotten frankly combative and rude and your counter argument is based upon a false premise. I've clarified my original intent as much as I care to. If this is how you engage with those that you disagree with I would encourage you to find a better approach. I am out of this conversation.

Post reply on HN