We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage • Hacker News Board

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#321

Post by andrei_says_ » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 9:08 PM UTC

b212 wrote: post #164

revvx wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same thing happen to me a couple times. Long and tiring process. Blackboard, make a project, lots of dirty laundry about "long gone incompetent developers" that made the current system a giant mess. Lots of red flags but lots of promises including a large maximum salary, including bonuses and stock options. The final offer, however, was 60% of my current pay. Lower than the average for someone with my exper…

Is this an American thing? I live in Eastern Europe and make decent buck here (close to 5000 EUR/mo after taxes in a country where you can cover all expenses under 1000 EUR/mo). I never had any trouble getting quality work in my country but a few times I got approached by companies from the US and oh boy, weeks of tiring recrutation process and the pay was ALWAYS worse than local. I feel like they do it on purpose ma…

I highly highly recommend Lab Rats by Dan Lyons. Dissects the forces behind the current state of the workforce in the US.

Very well written and exposes the brutality and destruction resulting from focusing on short term profit at any cost.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#322

Post by ghufran_syed » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 9:08 PM UTC

I feel like the way to deal with this situation is to ask them to pay a $1000-2000 deposit to take a day to interview, refundable in the event that the company makes an offer meeting certain conditions (e.g cash salary >= $amount)

Most companies will say 'no', the tiny minority that say 'yes' are the ones that are serious.

Clearly only works if you have enough 'dealflow' to end up with nonzero takers

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#323

Post by jopsen » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 9:10 PM UTC

fabricexpert wrote: post #318

dangero wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to give a slightly different perspective on this as a cofounder of a startup. First of all it sounds like there was some really dishonest communication and there is no excuse for that. As far as salary goes, I absolutely cannot afford to compete and hire at market rate prices so I rely on: -People who are motivated by other factors than money (everyone at our company took a pay cut to join). We have schedule f…

> I absolutely cannot afford to compete and hire at market rate prices maybe you need some funding then

Article author suggest he could just do the thing himself instead of working for company... Thus, he should seek more equity :)

Well, maybe..

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#324

Post by tomek_zemla » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 9:11 PM UTC

I had an interview with a recruiter for an apparently (from what I hear) good AI company in Montreal, Canada. Their business is happening so they need to find a lot of people of various specialities. So they hired some ultra junior and not very bright full time recruiters. They are the ones that make lots of initial rejections stopping good candidates from actually getting to the proper subject matter interviews. The recruiter was confused because I applied for a UX/UI design position - my focus last 10 or so years - but I actually studied computer science so I have lots of coding experience not only design skills. This is an actual quote from the conversation: 'So, I see you _also_ have programming experience, but you applied for UX/UI design position, so I am not sure it is _good_...'.

I did manage to navigate through completely retarded 45 minute HR conversation and got invited for the interview with the director of UX. From the moment I walked in the guy was ultra uncomfortable and shy because he was obviously 15~20 years younger than myself. Also clearly never interviewed people before. I never heard back from them, but I see that the position is still open...

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#325

Post by aoeusnth1 » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 9:11 PM UTC

revvx wrote: post #307

marcosdumay wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it not a promise? I fail to imagine it being said in a way that isn't one.

It is a verbal promise, not a contract. They just broke it. They were unprofessional.

A verbal promise can very easily be interpreted as a contract by a court. (IANAL, and clearly YANAL)

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#326

Post by duxup » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 9:12 PM UTC

It's a strange hiring world out there.

I changed careers and was inundated with recruiters contacting me..... a total n00b. Nice huh?

Not really, every one of them just seemed to be sweeping up resumes and names and faces and not paying attention.

I'd talk to them on the phone "no I don't have 5 years experience, just like it shows on my resume"...

One after another, total waste of time.

Then I'd get a bite, or even interview and ... some would just go radio silence. Man how hard is it even to send a cookie cutter "we went in another direction" email?

I wish I could have only talked to people who actually looked at my resume first and wanted to talk to that guy. Maybe it wouldn't be many but it would save a lot of time, looking for a job is hard enough as it is.

Meanwhile every job does require 5 years experience but I'm pretty sure they don't. I'd hear the actual job and no man a n00b could do that just fine.

Meanwhile my last job now requires a CS degree where really a high school grad who is mildly capable with a CCNA could do just fine, but they're still looking to fill my position a year later... They could have brought on two people for like 6 months to just try them out and but they'd rather not.

I'm fairly sure there's just a lot of busy work being made by HR and head hunters who have no clue anyway.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#327

Post by arthurcolle » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 9:12 PM UTC

d4mi3n wrote: post #104

revvx wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same thing happen to me a couple times. Long and tiring process. Blackboard, make a project, lots of dirty laundry about "long gone incompetent developers" that made the current system a giant mess. Lots of red flags but lots of promises including a large maximum salary, including bonuses and stock options. The final offer, however, was 60% of my current pay. Lower than the average for someone with my exper…

Rule number 1, IMO, never discuss salary. I find listing your salary requirements before starting a process weeds out a lot of silly interviews. If you know your worth and have a goal for your salary, it is the most effective way I know to avoid dumb offers.

I agree with the rule and wish it was easier to put into practice. What I've noticed however, is that a lot of recruiters stonewall you if you don't tell them a number, or at least a range. They even say things like "Well I need to put something into this internal web app." It's super frustrating!

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#328

Post by cardine » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 9:12 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #292

ketzo wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an inherently high-paying field with room for both huge advancement and a lot of specificity/niches, not to mention that by its nature software engineering creates more software engineering jobs. God forbid we open that up to people who should be resigned to whatever you think "blue collar" means?

When you increase supply, wages decrease. Wages will decline if you open the field up to everyone. Understandably, not everyone in tech wants wages to decline. If you want your wage to decline in the name of opportunity, that is your choice to make, but it is not your choice to have someone else's wages decline. What you're saying is, "God forbid you care about your quality of life so much you're not willing to keep…

>If you want your wage to decline in the name of opportunity, that is your choice to make, but it is not your choice to have someone else's wages decline.

Why is it your choice to make? Shouldn't it be the new people trying to get into the computer science industry who get to make that choice?

It feels like what you're saying is "God forbid someone else tries to join your industry and tries to make a better life for themselves, and god forbid others for trying to help them."

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#329

Post by TheSpiceIsLife » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 9:13 PM UTC

dangero wrote: post #313

burtonator wrote: post #5

I had a recruiter call me a year ago with what sounded like a really amazing offer. Working for a well funded startup on a problem in which I happen to be a domain expert. They're aren't many expects in my field with my background and skill set and they said the right things to get me to interview (compensation won't be a concern). Anyway... Went in for 4-5 interviews. Took me about 10 hours in total to interview wit…

I want to give a slightly different perspective on this as a cofounder of a startup. First of all it sounds like there was some really dishonest communication and there is no excuse for that. As far as salary goes, I absolutely cannot afford to compete and hire at market rate prices so I rely on: -People who are motivated by other factors than money (everyone at our company took a pay cut to join). We have schedule f…

How do you reconcile this statement:

First of all it sounds like there was some really dishonest communication and there is no excuse for that.

With this one:

People who are unaware of their market value

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#330

Post by wheelerwj » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 9:13 PM UTC

ranci wrote: post #119

wheelerwj wrote: post #72

this is a big trend in business, startups, and HR right now (and growing for the last 10 years+). Don't rush to hire a good candidate, put time into the perfect candidate. Good or bad, i think its debatable. but most of the experience and "meta" these days is to wait for a great candidate.

Then you don't need the work associated with that job to be done very badly. Yet it will still be marketed as "an opportunity to change the world".

i don’t think those two things are mutually exclusive.

you can need the job done, and need it done very well, in order for it the opportunity to change to succeed.