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I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

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Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#321

Post by ars »

mikeash wrote: post #278
ars wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it means the ones they didn't like were also chosen by God, and it means they have mistake in their belief of what God wants. It's no different from somebody wanting their loved one to live, and God disagreeing and the person passes away. So next time you hear that reinterpret it as "wow I must be doing something right if God wants the same thing I want".

Can I also interpret it as “wow, I must have really fucked up if God wanted the total opposite of what I wanted the last time around?”

Partly. But say you want your spouse to live, but God made them die.

Are you wrong? No. You just don't have all the info. Could be the same here, you might be totally wrong as you say, or it could be you're not wrong, you just don't (and can't) know everything involved.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#322

Post by bredren »

op00to wrote: post #195
bredren wrote: post #181

My grandfather had a do not resuscitate legal order. However, they did not have that at the hospital at the time he had his final trip to the ER. As a result the man went through a failed code attempt he did not want. So It is pretty rough to read this article, because It describes the sad experience for the patient in such real detail.

This happened to both my parents. In my dad's case, they failed and he died. In my mom's case, they succeeded in saving her a few times even after she was brain dead. She had a DNR, but it wasn't an actual medical order from a doctor, but a legal document, so they ignored it. No fucking clue why.

I’m not sure but I suspect there is a big insurance billing associates with performance of a code.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#323

Post by ars »

mikeash wrote: post #288
IgorPartola wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If he literally created the universe and all the laws of nature, couldn’t he create such a concept?

I think this shows that the concept of omnipotence is itself logically incoherent. It’s the theological equivalent of Russell’s set of all sets that do not contain themselves.

> If he literally created the universe and all the laws of nature, couldn’t he create such a concept?

That would imply that there are two things: God, and this creation of his "the ability to can't", but since God is just "one" this entire concept can not be attributed to him.

You can read about "Negative theology" if you are really interested in this topic.

> I think this shows that the concept of omnipotence is itself logically incoherent. It’s the theological equivalent of Russell’s set of all sets that do not contain themselves.

That's not a new idea, wikipedia has: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox

The subsection "Paradox is meaningless: the question is sophistry" covers it about as well as I could in a comment here.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#324

Post by learc83 »

GalacticDomin8r wrote: post #317
learc83 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The national debate was mostly pro-life groups trying to spin the situation for political gain. And even among those groups, I don't remember it being a common argument that she should live because God would miraculously heal her. The argument was that (they believed) she was still conscious and that her life was still worth living.

> The national debate was mostly pro-life groups trying to spin the situation for political gain. That is what I would call a distinction without a difference. The underlying motivation for those actors is still the same no matter you call it religion or politics. They appealed to the identity of the religious and largely got the response they wanted. Same thing Russia did with BLM except Russia was inciting both sid…

>Christian's believe in miracles/supernatural by definition. This includes faith healing.

The first assertion is true. The 2nd doesn't follow from the first--many Christians don't believe that miraculous events still happen. Faith healing in particular has a very specific meaning, and many denominations outright condemn it.

As to what extent belief in the possibility of miraculous healing affects the vast majority of Christian's actions. I'd say no more than the belief that there is a tiny chance that a science might be wrong about a diagnosis affects a non-believer's actions.

>It absolutely prevalent everywhere in the religion and its different sects. The Terri Schiavo incident was not specially exempt from this belief.

People existed who believed that there was a small chance that God could choose to heal her. It doesn’t follow from that premise that these people were against removing her feeding tube because of that belief--it certainly doesn't follow that the broader Christian community was against it because of that belief. That was not the stated reasoning of the vast majority of her parent’s supporters.

This case just doesn’t provide evidence that Christians are more likely to pursue aggressive treatment or less likely to accept death because they believe God will save their family members because there was no national debate about miraculous healing.

The national debate at the time was primarily about whether or not she was conscious and was her life worth living, whether or not it’s cruel to kill someone by denying food and water, and whether or not denying food and water through a feeding tube is the same as killing someone.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#325

Post by belorn »

silencio wrote: post #205
belorn wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very close relative of mine got a similar massive stroke when he was around 60 that also hit the language center. Even if I was quite young I remember that moment of frustration in the hospital when when he could not talk with either of us. The doctor explained he would unlikely survive the night, and even if he did he would not be able to leave the hospital bed. His daughter did the same however what the person in…

The decision is easier when you have conversations and put wishes in writing before they are necessary. And update them as needed. My dad has ESRD and we've had some conversations about what he would want at the end. Many of the potential issues we've discussed involve getting 2nd+ opinions if necessary... but he also makes it clear (and I agree with him) that at some point the treatment and recovery process itself m…

(sorry for delayed reply, the comment brought back quite a few things).

Yes. Having the conversation before really helps. Not only is it said to put less stress on those close to oneself, but it put things in a bit larger perspective. A 2nd+ opinion is also critical, and who know what one would have said in our case. I strongly hope that the medical science is today better than 30 years ago so that the advice the doctors gives are today more accurate.

For myself I have thought a few times about what I would want, but have not reached a decision. The article is a strong reminder how badly it can and in many cases will happen when someone demand full treatment.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#326

Post by diminoten »

pdonis wrote: post #316
diminoten wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So to be clear, you can obviously see when I'm expressing my opinion, but due to semantics of English, you demand I express it in a way that doesn't offend you? Jesus dude, why the fuck would anyone listen to that level of hubris? What the hell kind of incentives are you giving me here, because right now my only incentive is to laugh at the person who can't actually have a conversation because they're too busy derail…

> you can obviously see when I'm expressing my opinion Yes, exactly, which is why I keep objecting when you express your opinion but then treat it as if it were fact.

I don't care if you object, I'm not going to stop.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#327

Post by musicale »

Whenever I read something like this, I am reminded of several friends of mine who are physicians, and how a couple of them seemed to undergo personality changes during or after med school and residency.

After residency, they seemed to have lost an important part of their humanity - namely compassion and a desire to help people. It was replaced an air of superiority and contempt for others, tinged with cynicism and a joyless gallows humor.

I'm not sure how common this is, or how my other physician friends managed to avoid it, but it was a disturbing and obvious change that bothers me to this day.

(Though now I think about it one thing some of them had in common was wisely quitting general surgery residencies because of the massive and unprofessional mistreatment of residents as well as rampant sexism.)

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#328

Post by diminoten »

pdonis wrote: post #315
diminoten wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah so now you rope back around to the actual conversation. Nope, you've poisoned this well too much with your semantic nonsense, you don't deserve to benefit from anything I have to say about death.

> you don't deserve to benefit from anything I have to say about death You've already said what you have to say about death pretty clearly, so if I were going to derive any benefit from it, I would have already done so. But if it will set your mind at rest, no, I haven't derived any benefit from what you have to say about death.

All you're doing is being petty and generally terrible. Why?

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#329

Post by lolc »

diminoten wrote: post #328
pdonis wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you don't deserve to benefit from anything I have to say about death You've already said what you have to say about death pretty clearly, so if I were going to derive any benefit from it, I would have already done so. But if it will set your mind at rest, no, I haven't derived any benefit from what you have to say about death.

All you're doing is being petty and generally terrible. Why?

I've been watching this thread in amazement. If this is how you communicate with people you'll often have your style described as petty and terrible. Are you just repeating what you hear yourself a lot?

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#330

Post by fapjacks »

anongraddebt wrote: post #309
fapjacks wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facing one's own mortality carries a tacit knowledge of death that can't be got by other means. It's one thing to think about it intellectually, to sort of turn it around in your mind. But it doesn't give you a sense of death. I can tell from your treatment of it that you haven't. And that you hold up this sort of deeply personal interaction as a demonstration of some problems you believe you've identified with an en…

You get a sense of death in various ways. Life-threatening illness. Experiencing the death of friends and family members (and not just experiencing, but processing your emotions and not running from the pain by choosing to simply ignore it as if it is not really there). Spending time with and caring for the sick and elderly. There are more ways. I've only been in a life-threatening situation once in my life, but I've…

No, your point was that you were trying to use my post as a springboard into passing your value judgments about western culture. Which was itself incredibly ironic both in your actually using the word "irony" and in your sort of amazingly insensitive attempt to hijack my small message of encouragement to this poor dude (to try looking at and thinking of his torment in a different way) in order to interject your theories. Which was for me, in the end, the thing which QA folks call an indicator.
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