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Lies We Tell Kids

paulgraham.com

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Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#321

Post by rsheridan6 »

technoguyrob wrote: post #270
rsheridan6 wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, he's 4 and, although he knows every bad word except "cunt," he knows better than to say them, at least in front of grown-ups. But cursing is not ruined for him - he still thinks cursing is hilarious and he frequently asks me to say a bad word. I would say it's working out. He doesn't offend the tribal elders and I don't have to lie by simulating outrage - I've told him the real reason why he can't curse.

Why not cunt?

That's about the only word we've never slipped up and said around him. It's hard to stop 30 years of potty-mouth cold turkey.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#322

Post by stevecooperorg »

dr__zeuss wrote: post #241
pg wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it count as a 'lie' if it is believed by the parent? There are senses of the word that include that, but I meant mostly things parents say knowing they're false, or at least that they'd admit were false if questioned.

In that case, I wonder if religion counts as a lie. Lots of religious people either truly believe, or have done a great job of tricking themselves into thinking they believe.

Much religious belief has a special protected status, though -- you aren't supposed to ask bare questions about the truth value of religious statements, or tell the truth when talking to someone else's kids;

  Little jimmy: "doing that makes the baby jesus cry"

  Adult: "Don't worry, Jimmy. Jesus is dead."

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#323

Post by stevecooperorg »

mhartl wrote: post #201
asnyder wrote: post #19

Besides being a woman, Marie Curie was the first and ONLY person to ever recieve a Nobel Prize in different sciences. Something her male counterparts have yet to do, so maybe there's something there besides her sex.

Let N be the number of great scientists. It would be sensible for the curriculum to include the n greatest scientists, where n N . Since Marie Curie always gets included in the textbooks, we can conclude either that she ranks as one of the n greatest scientists, even for very small n , or that the reasons for her inclusion go beyond her scientific accomplishments. Considering how few history textbooks mention (for ex…

Curie is included to inspire girls to become scientists. The textbooks provide both a record of history, and role models for students.

I'm not entirely convinced that record-keeping should trump role models.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#324

Post by slatts »

I think there is a really good reason for telling kids not to swear, and it's the same reason novice speakers of a foreign language are warned to avoid swearing until they're absolutely, positively certain they understand all of the subtleties involved. To go into a foreign culture throwing around swear words willy-nilly is to risk using them in the wrong context or in the wrong company, which can make one a social outcast or even the victim of violence. One can never get into trouble for not swearing, and with the cost of incorrect swearing so high, the best course of action for most novices is not swearing at all.

Likewise, as novices, kids lack the experience to know when the use of swear words is or isn't appropriate, and in such a case, the safest course of action is to avoid using them altogether.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#325

Post by pg »

partdavid wrote: post #308
run4yourlives wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an outrageous opinion, frankly. Do you blame the people of Burma too for not "recognizing the signs" of the impending catastrophe? The rape victim for wearing a dress that's too tight? Blame should be placed always with the actor. There may be extenuating circumstances for the people involved, but one should never allow those to dissolve and/or lesson the blame in the action.

"Blame should be placed always with the actor." I wouldn't have put it the way the GP did, but yeah, "blame," if we have to assign it, probably does always land at least partly on both partners in a relationship. PG was proposing a hypothetical in "outrageous" terms as a counterexample, and arguing about the specifics of the counterexample is probably pointless. We aren't going to establish what the specifics were in…

It's obnoxious to most people to contemplate the idea that children in a family might contribute to a divorce, but this is undoubtedly sometimes true.

Actually that was another of Mayle's 3 axioms, and it seemed to me that might sometimes be false too, but I went for the other because was so obviously false.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#326

Post by pg »

parent wrote: post #293

I respectfully disagree with your comment about the Thanksgiving Dinner lie. You stated, "that was probably the best way to handle a frightened 10 year old." In my experience a far better way would be to tell the truth, "I don't know if the Turkey wanted to die." Then, the parents could parent the child and explain how everything needs to eat to live. It was a perfect opportunity for the parents to illustrate why the…

I was talking about my mother calming my fears after watching the documentary about pollution, not the Thanksgiving lie.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#327

Post by run4yourlives »

partdavid wrote: post #308
run4yourlives wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an outrageous opinion, frankly. Do you blame the people of Burma too for not "recognizing the signs" of the impending catastrophe? The rape victim for wearing a dress that's too tight? Blame should be placed always with the actor. There may be extenuating circumstances for the people involved, but one should never allow those to dissolve and/or lesson the blame in the action.

"Blame should be placed always with the actor." I wouldn't have put it the way the GP did, but yeah, "blame," if we have to assign it, probably does always land at least partly on both partners in a relationship. PG was proposing a hypothetical in "outrageous" terms as a counterexample, and arguing about the specifics of the counterexample is probably pointless. We aren't going to establish what the specifics were in…

>You're attaching a heavy moral burden to the notion of a failed marriage,

I did no such thing. You did. If you remove that point, you'll see that I'm perfectly consistent in assigning blame to the actor.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#328

Post by keating »

jamess wrote: post #26
dgabriel wrote: post #4

My least favorite pg essay. It's too easy to generalize about parenting, and so little of this essay applies to me. 1. Raising a kid in the city, and quite happily. 2. No prohibitions on swears in my house. Just at Grandma's, and only because it would offend her, not because swearing is inherently bad. 3. He goes to a school where they only teach you how to read, write, and do basic math. Everything else is a child-l…

For their own sake, don't let your kids be vegetarian until they're at least 16, that's the worst disservice you could ever do them. I speak as a vegetarian myself, but you've got to be pragmatic. Your kids need animal protein right up until their brains are done developing. It doesn't have to be very much animal protein, as little as a teaspoon a day does the trick, but there is no artificial or vegetable substitute…

> Your kids need animal protein right up until their brains are done developing. It doesn't have to be very much animal protein, as little as a teaspoon a day does the trick

This is utter nonsense on multiple levels.

1. Biochemically it doesn't matter what the source of the amino acid is. You can supply all essential amino acids from combinations of any number of plant sources.

2. "Vegetarian" does not exclude animal sources, as it typically includes milk and eggs. Vegan does, but that doesn't matter anyway, as per #1.

3. "A teaspoon" -- where did you come up with that rule of thumb? This is obviously superstition.

4. Brains require fats (especially DHA and EPA) and glucose. The human brain is 60% fat. Glucose is the fuel. Omega-3 fatty acids (DHA and EPA) can be supplied directly through microalgae oil, or converted from ALA in flax, walnuts, and other sources.

5. Human breast milk is only 5%-10% protein (by calories), yet during breastfeeding is when a human grows proportionately the fastest.

Stop with your protein myth and ridiculous child abuse nonsense.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#329

Post by keating »

jamess wrote: post #75
jkkramer wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cite? I've never seen any evidence that kids need animal protein to develop. I was raised vegetarian from birth and have no mental or physical defects to speak of. I have siblings and cousins and friends that are the same. Vitamin B12 is the only thing that can be a challenge to get from non-animal sources, but that's only a concern if you're vegan. The whole "vegetarians don't get enough protein" thing is an overblo…

Yes, that's the thing. There's literally millions of people in Africa who get little or no animal protein, and they grow up just fine. The point is that study after study shows that with just a tiny portion of animal protein, they end up a whole lot smarter. I'm not trying to suggest you aren't yourself a smart person, just that simply because you can't see the ill effects your actions cause doesn't mean they don't e…

> The point is that study after study shows that with just a tiny portion of animal protein, they end up a whole lot smarter.

You're confusing two separate issues. The key factor is that treating malnourishment of impoverished and starving African children is beneficial. This has nothing to do with whether they are fed concentrated protein from animals or plants.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#330

Post by keating »

jamess wrote: post #70
cia_plant wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American Dietetic Association, at least, disagrees: "Well-planned vegan and other types of vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood and adolescence." http://www.eatright.org/cps/rde/xchg/ada/hs.xsl/advocacy_933... Can you at least offer a source for your shocking claims?

Erm, hardly shocking. It has been established since at least the 80s that vitamin B12 is essential for brain development, and any number of large scale developmental studies have been carried out to that effect.There are no non-animal sources for vitamin B12. If you find any doctor of medicine who will recommend a vegan or vegetarian diet to either a breast feeding mother or to a child, then they ought to be struck o…

> vitamin B12

Cobalamin is added to any number of foods (usually in the form of cyanocobalamin), including bread, cereal, orange juice, soy milk, veggie burgers, soft drinks, and on and on. It is produced by bacteria.

I know multiple mothers who have breastfed while on vegan diets. It is trivial to get B-12, simply by taking a multivitamin, which they should do anyway regardless of diet (starting with prenatal preparation including folic acid supplementation).

I would suggest doing more research on the subject of veganism and discontinuation of spreading further misinformation.

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